SubJeff on 20/6/2013 at 21:29
Thief gave you offensive arrows, not just arrows for stealth.
Therefore you could kill from a distance.
Killing from a distance eliminates the need to spend time planning and sneaking.
You get to the loot quicker and easier.
Loot is a reward.
You are rewarded for killing.
Esme on 20/6/2013 at 21:34
OK i've seen people argue that "Headshot 40 XP" encourages killing and I've seen people argue that it discourages it because it stops them gaining even more XP for a sneaky blackjack KO.
I didn't see any equivalent popup to the "Headshot 40 XP" pop up when Garrett dropped on the guard at the beginning and KO'd them while having an out of body experience, so what is the XP for a stealthy KO and where did we find the figure ?
Because in my personal opinion unless there was a pop up with a higher score that I blinked and missed then the 40XP pop up was a reward favouring killing over stealth.
Vae on 20/6/2013 at 21:34
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Loot is a reward.
You are rewarded for killing.
"Loot" is a general reward...
not a specific reward for killing....which is the fundamental point.
Renault on 20/6/2013 at 21:38
I think in the simplest terms, everyone's got so "attached" to Garrett, we don't want to think of him as a cold-blooded killer.
Infinitron on 20/6/2013 at 21:46
Quote Posted by Vae
"Loot" is a general reward...
not a specific reward for killing....which is the fundamental point.
More accurately, the experience is a SYSTEMIC reward. You ALWAYS get it. Loot, you may or may not get, depending on the circumstances.
Generally speaking, in any game, XP rewards for killing, or any other rote action, result in the player being trained to perform that action in a Pavlovian fashion - "make a headshot, gain reward!".
This was a big problem in DX:HR, where a smart player found himself hacking every computer and knocking out every enemy - instead of focusing on completing objectives and actually playing the game the way he wants to - just to squeeze out every last bit of precious XP.
Esme on 20/6/2013 at 21:46
Garrett's always been able to kill whether you do or not is up to the player.
However this is the first time Garrett has been rewarded specifically for killing a random, non mission objective, AI and not rewarded for a non lethal takedown
Chade on 20/6/2013 at 21:55
Quote Posted by Vae
This thread is an obfuscation of the core violation...For you see, even if allowed,
Killing should never be rewarded in a THIEF game.
Vae, killing has
always been rewarded in thief: it gets rid of the guard, helping you progress through the level and, you know, win the game. You then need to pile other punishments on top of that to try to overpower the fundamental fact that killing works.
Quote Posted by Infinitron
The Thief games strongly incentivized non-violent play by making the non-violent solution - blackjack to the head - an unlimited resource. Mines? Arrows? Those things run out.
incentivized? Broadhead arrows are cheap and plentiful. I honestly can't ever remember running out of them, even in my very first experiences with thief.
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
the notion that headshots are a discouraging mechanic ... is a stretch at best. I'd be hard pressed to name one game where headshots were not encouraged. ... so when you see it pop up Headshot! 40xp ... There's nothing discouraging in that ... I would wager many players would be content playing this way.
Head shots will be rewarded over body shots, sure, and yes, that's similar to other games. (And personally I'm fine with that.) But that's irrelevant to this discussion, which is looking at whether head shots are rewarded over less violent approaches.
My claim is that the "feel good" aspect of the reward will fade over time, whereas the punishment, the actual real reduction in XP for the level, will not fade away.
Quote Posted by Starker
Headshots were not a valid strategy in Thief. Like you said, the closest you could get to that was shooting people in the head and it wasn't acknowledged in any way. There's a difference between giving the player a fire arrow and giving them a fire arrow and putting guards in a pool of oil. Or stuff like crushing people under chandeliers and statues.
Fire arrows and crushing chandeliers have nothing to do with the topic at hand though ...
And yes, I did think about mentioning that there is now a difference between head shots and body shots in terms of damage dealt. But I hadn't seen anyone bring up that specific complaint, so I didn't bother.
Look, it took me
ages to realize that head shots didn't do extra damage in thief, so in a very real sense I have played thief "with headshots". I don't think it damages the experience in any way. The important issue is whether the player is going for a violent or non-violent approach. Once you decide to shoot the guard, you've already made the decision to take the violent approach (which is what we should discourage), the extra challenge of trying to hit a small area is a pretty appropriate challenge for thief actually. Garrett is meant to be skilled with the bow.
Esme on 20/6/2013 at 22:08
I have a vague memory that hed and body shots were equivalent in damage for an AI in the first two games, however I think you could shoot them in the legs for less damage if you just wanted their attention to get them moving and draw them away, not 100% on that though, never tried it
Vae on 20/6/2013 at 22:14
Quote Posted by Chade
Vae, killing has
always been rewarded in thief: it gets rid of the guard, helping you progress through the level and, you know, win the game. You then need to pile other punishments on top of that to try to overpower the fundamental fact that killing works.
You are incorrect...If allowed, "Killing" is one method used in order to complete a general objective, with possible general reward...
There is no specific reward for killing in a THIEF game.Shinrazero on 20/6/2013 at 22:23
Quote Posted by Infinitron
Look, I really don't care. The whole "business savvy gamer" schtick is really tiresome. Yes, all of us here know and understand that game developers need to make money. But as gaming connoisseurs, we can't let that distract us from our only priority, which is to demand high quality games.
I agree 100%.
