jay pettitt on 20/6/2013 at 15:18
What Fett said [about ghosting]
Also, unlike Esme, I did go for headshots in Thief 1, and I was rewarded - not by XP points - but with satisfaction, a quick takedown and with progress. I don't want to downplay non-lethal playstyles of course and I did those too, but broad-heads were in the game.
A more significant change is that there are XP points at all. Looking Glass had done a bunch of games that were basically tabletop RPGs transferred to computer with simulation instead of dice. Thief was an attempt at a game that kept the simulation while intentionally hiding the stats and doing all that number crunching malarkey behind the scenes - making for a game that was more natural for want of a better phrase. The return of XP is a 180 degree about face of that ambition.
--edit--
I don't actually know if The Dark Engine supported head-shots per se rather than a quick kill for un-alerted guards, but that didn't stop me going for them and feeling rewarded with a quick, efficient takedown when they came off.
Fandango on 20/6/2013 at 15:18
Quote Posted by Infinitron
No, but you mentioned a mine.
If you're already up close and personal with a guard, why not use the blackjack instead of the sword?
Unless of course the guard is alerted, in which case you ARE using up a limited resource - your health, because the guard is kicking your ass.
The mine example was from an all human level. I've heard the argument before that the sword was intended for only the undead and monsters so I wanted to quash the idea that The Dark Project didn't want you to ever kill a human.
There's no question the original indirectly encourages non-lethality indirectly by making blackjack/gas arrows much quiet and efficient than the lethal methods. But at the same time it's clear the games were designed so that Garrett could fight his way out after being spotted in a corner by a guard. Not everyone wants to roleplay as Garrett The Master Quick-Loader.
Esme on 20/6/2013 at 15:46
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
...
I don't actually know if The Dark Engine supported head-shots per se rather than a quick kill for un-alerted guards, but that didn't stop me going for them and feeling rewarded with a quick, efficient takedown when they came off.
AFAIR from dromedding an unalerted AI can be killed with one blow, if they became alerted their hitpoints are boosted to simulate them having an adrenaline rush, so it usually takes about five arrows instead of one to down an alerted guard
fett on 20/6/2013 at 16:02
Quote Posted by Fandango
The mine example was from an all human level. I've heard the argument before that the sword was intended for only the undead and monsters so I wanted to quash the idea that The Dark Project didn't want you to ever kill a human.
There's no question the original indirectly encourages non-lethality indirectly by making blackjack/gas arrows much quiet and efficient than the lethal methods. But at the same time it's clear the games were designed so that Garrett could fight his way out after being spotted in a corner by a guard. Not everyone wants to roleplay as Garrett The Master Quick-Loader.
So in essence, they designed the games for a muiltiplicity of playstyles? You could either be sneaky or aggressive, but playing offensively was not a good strategy overall? Hmmm...where have I heard that before. Oh wait. At E3. Over and over and over and over by the Thief devs.
(Fandango - not being snarky at you, just at the overall insistence that nuThief isn't Thief because there are offensive tactics available).
Esme - that's exactly what happens.
Queue on 20/6/2013 at 16:36
Fett hates women? Boy, I do have a website for him that I just stumbled upon!
nickie on 20/6/2013 at 16:41
I am watching you very closely at this moment, Queue.
Fandango on 20/6/2013 at 16:55
Quote Posted by fett
(Fandango - not being snarky at you, just at the overall insistence that nuThief isn't Thief because there are offensive tactics available).
That's the exact point I'm also trying to make. I personally play ghosty with the occasional blackjacking.
But it's good to know that there's still have the option of letting a fire arrow fly at that one stupid guard with bionic hearing and xray vision :joke:
Starker on 20/6/2013 at 17:01
Quote Posted by fett
(Fandango - not being snarky at you, just at the overall insistence that nuThief isn't Thief because there are offensive tactics available).
You have completely misunderstood me. I'm not arguing against violence being an option. I'm arguing against ultraviolence. Stuff like setting people on fire and crushing them under chandeliers. From my point of view those sorts of things are entirely unnecessary and thematically inappropriate.
Infinitron on 20/6/2013 at 17:11
Quote Posted by fett
So in essence, they designed the games for a muiltiplicity of playstyles? You could either be sneaky or aggressive, but playing offensively was not a good strategy overall? Hmmm...where have I heard that before. Oh wait. At E3. Over and over and over and over by the Thief devs.
(Fandango - not being snarky at you, just at the overall insistence that nuThief isn't Thief because there are offensive tactics available).
Esme - that's exactly what happens.
You're approaching this very simplistically. It's not enough to just throw in "multiplicity of playstyles" into the game. Bioshock did that, and the result was for the most part shallow and uninteresting.
You say playing offensively is "not a good strategy overall". But how "not good" is it?
Is it not good enough that you can't possibly kill every guard? Is it not good enough that killing guards deprives you of precious, irreplaceable resources? Is it not good enough that killing every guard is tedious and unfun? Because those are the things a game needs to do incentivize the non-violent, Thiefy playstyle.
What evidence do we have that EM are doing something like that?
If you want to defend this game, these are the things you need to find out.Renault on 20/6/2013 at 17:13
I shouldn't have a problem with the whole HEADSHOT thing, mainly because I won't be doing any of that. But it does bug me, because even though the devs keep saying "Play the way YOU want to play" ad naseum, that's really not how the original thief was intended to be played (and I'm not talking about strictly Ghosting here). All the promotional materials and the manuals and whatnot talked about "the shadows and silence are your allies" and "stealth and cunning are your tools," NOT "play silent or violent, it's up to you!" Sure, you
could go through and kill everyone, but it was tough to do and usually a last resort and only for people playing on the easiest difficulty level.
It seems like New Thief is presenting many more options for going the violent route almost to the point of promoting it. Headshots, guards standing in oil puddles, and highlighting guards pressure points, etc. Violence used to be a last resort, but now it's on equal footing, if you want to go that route.
Now all the on-screen notifications and XP and stuff like that, I do have a real problem with that, mainly because it's obnoxious and immersion breaking, and I'm guessing everyone here at least agrees on that so I'm not going to beat that point to death.
Here's the intro to the TDP manual, in case anyone is curious. I'm pretty sure the New Thief manual will
not read this way:
Quote:
In Thief: The Dark Project you play the character of Garrett, a
hardened thief of the highest caliber. Shadows and silence are your allies.
Light is your enemy. Stealth and cunning are your tools. And the riches
of others are yours for the taking.
You ply your trade in the City, preying on the rich nobility and corrupt
merchants who are no more deserving of their worldly goods than a hard-working
thief. You have a reliable fence, named Cutty, who's always on the lookout
for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down.
Every job comes with some danger. Being a thief means always being one
misstep away from finding an angry guard bearing down on you with a drawn
blade. For those unfortunate moments, you carry a sword yourself. A blackjack
and a short-bow are also part of your arsenal. Fighting is not your first
choice, but sometimes it's the only option.
More often, the road to riches is dark and silent. You have tools designed
to deceive your enemies, tools which can keep you out of danger, and tools
to help you get into those hard-to-reach places. You are a thief, not a
warrior. So keep your wits about you, and you won't lose your head.
