Vivian on 20/6/2013 at 14:48
So if you shoot someone in the head (well.. heady-necky area in practice) and it's an instakill (vs. shooting them anywhere else), that's not a headshot? What is it then?
Starker on 20/6/2013 at 14:49
Quote Posted by Vivian
So if you shoot someone in the head and it's an instakill (vs. shooting them anywhere else), that's not a headshot? What is it then?
It wasn't an instakill in the first games.
Fandango on 20/6/2013 at 14:49
Quote Posted by Starker
Headshots were not a valid strategy in Thief. Like you said, the closest you could get to that was shooting people in the head and it wasn't acknowledged in any way. There's a difference between giving the player a fire arrow and giving them a fire arrow and putting guards in a pool of oil. Or stuff like crushing people under chandeliers and statues.
People forget how violent the original games could be (emphasis on "could"). I was replaying the Thief's guild mission from Thief Gold last night, and I found an explosive mine in a chest. What were LGS intending me to use that on? The three spiders in the sewers, or the dozens of human guards?
The Garrett never kills anyone idea is ONLY on Expert mode, which is something that almost no one would choose on their first play through unless they are a Thief series veteran. I remember beating the game on normal, replaying on expert and being surprised how much I had to change my strategies to be non-lethal.
fett on 20/6/2013 at 14:49
Quote Posted by Starker
Headshots were not a valid strategy in Thief. Like you said, the closest you could get to that was shooting people in the head and it wasn't acknowledged in any way.
Communication fail. Dude, you just basically said, "Headshots were not a valid strategy in Thief - the closest you could get to that was headshots."
And they were acknowledged. You know why? Because the guard that was in your way, that you just shot in the head? HE'S DEAD NOW.
Headshots were an absolutely valid tactic when you were in trouble or couldn't find another way through, especially when new to the game. Their validity as a strategy is evidenced in the fact that when you shot someone in the head (at alert state 1), you removed that obstacle from the puzzle and were able to then progress through the mission. How is that not valid?
Try again.
Starker - it absolutely IS an instakill. Have you even played this game? Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, by Looking Glass Studios? Because when I shoot a bitch in the head in those games, that bitch is instantly dead.
Vivian on 20/6/2013 at 14:50
Arrow in the head/neck on an unsuspecting NPC is instakill in all of the three Thief games. Go try it.
fett on 20/6/2013 at 14:56
Quote Posted by Fandango
The Garrett never kills anyone idea is ONLY on Expert mode, which is something that almost no one would choose on their first play through unless they are a Thief series veteran.
So is this idea of ghosting. It's obvious from the design of the first two games (the third was more forgiving) that LGS never intended people to ghost the levels. If they had, there would be no discussion of guard bumping, stacking, or all the other crazy ways we've devised to get around guards. When you are designing a mission and place a guard directly in front of a piece of loot in bright lighting with a single path to approach, there's no way you expect someone to ghost that. A quick perusal of lytha.com and Thumper's site illustrate dozens of situations like this. It's a grace that EM is even talking about ghosting and making that possible in T4, because that is STRICTLY a community invention, not an LGS one. Talk about not altering the DNA of the originals? That's a HUGE alteration that no one seems to have a problem with because it accommodates our quirky little community.
Esme on 20/6/2013 at 14:57
Quote Posted by fett
If anyone here played through any of the original games the first time without shooting someone in the head, I'll give you $100 right now...
I remember getting my arse handed to me a lot the first time I played, pretty sure I didn't shoot any AI's in the head, I ran a lot, I hid a lot, I died a lot but I was a thief not a murderer so I tried very hard to live up to that, which probably contributed to me getting my arse handed to me, I certainly don't remember the game patting me on the head with a reward if I did kill any AI's.
I liked Thief because it was different to all the other run gun and kill everything that moves games.
The only time I've resorted to headshots are in FM's where the designer had souped up the AI's to the point that they were lightning fast killing machines that couldn't be snuck up on.
What would you accept as proof of this ? I do have a time machine but it's stuck in 'forward' and only goes at the same speed as the rest of us.
Starker on 20/6/2013 at 15:01
Quote Posted by Vivian
Arrow in the head/neck on an unsuspecting NPC is instakill in all of the three Thief games. Go try it.
Ok, so you can headshot people in the first games. But there's still a huge difference between it and "Headshot!"'
Fandango on 20/6/2013 at 15:02
Quote Posted by fett
So is this idea of ghosting. It's obvious from the design of the first two games (the third was more forgiving) that LGS never intended people to ghost the levels. If they had, there would be no discussion of guard bumping
I love the implications of guard bumping.
Garrett is a true Thief, he'd never blackjack the guard blocking his path! He'd do what any true thief would: hump his leg for five minutes until the guard is standing 2 feet over to the right.
Maybe the new Thief will have a third person guard bumping animation to keep the ghosters happy :cheeky:
Infinitron on 20/6/2013 at 15:03
Quote Posted by Fandango
People forget how violent the original games could be (emphasis on "could"). I was replaying the Thief's guild mission from Thief Gold last night, and I found an explosive mine in a chest. What were LGS intending me to use that on? The three spiders in the sewers, or the dozens of human guards?
The Garrett never kills anyone idea is ONLY on Expert mode, which is something that almost no one would choose on their first play through unless they are a Thief series veteran. I remember beating the game on normal, replaying on expert and being surprised how much I had to change my strategies to be non-lethal.
The Thief games strongly incentivized non-violent play by making the non-violent solution - blackjack to the head - an unlimited resource.
Mines? Arrows? Those things run out. Players don't want to waste a limited resource, so they'll only use it if they absolutely can't get the unlimited resource to work.
If you've ever played a CRPG and found yourself with a crazy hoard of potions at the endgame then you'll know what I'm talking about.
