Starker on 25/6/2013 at 02:11
I would say Thief is primarily about voyeurism, going to places where you shouldn't. Stealth and exploration are both there to facilitate that.
Chade on 25/6/2013 at 02:15
Quote Posted by demagogue
I wasn't saying you were anti-exploration, just that your personality seems to be on the side where the stealth gameplay and fulfilling the objectives are really central to the game, and exploration is a nice thing on top of that, if you were like people in that other thread.
Yes, that sounds about right.
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I would think that the two are equally as important as each other. Thief(4) will have huge open areas Im sure, but the controls are not "free form", meaning that you, um, wait a minute. You dont know what free form movement/exploration is?!?!.
We were talking about "exploration", not "movement/exploration". They are different things. Exploration is a higher level action. Movement is a very low level action and is just one component of exploration, in exactly the same way as it is a component of other higher level actions like stealth or combat.
Regarding movement, we don't yet know how free-form it will be. We know the E3 demo was at least a little less free then earlier games, but we don't know any of the specifics apart from the gimped rope-arrows.
Ultimately what you need for exploration is the ability to find places that don't obviously exist and reach places that weren't obviously reachable. Flexible low level movement is a powerful tool to accomplish this, but a) the controls may well be flexible enough to do lots of exploration, and b) movement controls are not the only game in town. Camouflage, complicated architecture, interaction between items in the level, etc ...
Finally, huge open areas do not in any way imply the ability to explore. You can't explore a football field. You can explore an attic.
EDIT:
Starker, I would agree with that.
Brother Inquisitor on 5/7/2013 at 17:44
I just saw the E3 video for the first time and couldn't believe my eyes. I mean, that godawful, uninspired trailer was bad enough, but this...
Inline Image:
http://sneakybastards.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/40xpheadshot.jpg...this should actually become a meme! It's so fundamentally wrong, the very embodiment of the pitiful state the gaming industry is now in. It's a symbol of every beloved francise you ever knew being ritually butchered on the altar of the mass market. So far, I considered NuThiaf a nuisance at best, but this is just repulsive!
jtbalogh on 7/7/2013 at 03:00
1. But thief is meant to be about sneaking, not killing!
2. XP rewards are encouraging the player to do headshots!
When I was a newbie, I admit to headshots before but have learned that they are not needed at all to move and progress. If XP statistics eventually help more quickly guide a player to kill less, that will be fine. Do we know the math yet to balance ghosting and killing? I did not see the math yet and the argument will persist until the math is shown.
3. We don't want these intrusive pop-ups ruining our minimal thief experience!
Headshot one guard who drops to the floor and the door is safe to enter. The reward is movement and instant gratification that is not buried in statistics later. It is already totally obvious the door is safe to enter. A popup at the same exact time _appears_ as a redundant reminder the door is safe to enter and made worse with information that knows nothing about the movement and progression. In achieving one thing, the popup actually distracted from the main objective.
To fix the popup:
1) Make it a training popup/tooltip like in other games. Each popup is assigned to a category (like XP) that turns off after notifying the player a couple times and not constantly appear. The newbie popup can be turned off completely in options later. Turning it on resets the counter and all popup categories can notify the player again. Put the option ingame or in the configuration file.
2) Show XP only in the item inventory with loot. Add a row with the total XP counter under the loot counters, and optionally the last XP received. XP can be considered loot since upgrading equipment later. Have the loot counter item appear in our inventory cycle when we get XP, just like picking up loot, scrolls and books.
EDIT: never mind about showing it with loot because the game put the loot popup somewhere else too now.
Renzatic on 7/7/2013 at 03:18
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
When I was a newbie, I admit to headshots before but have learned that they are not needed at all to move and progress. If XP statistics eventually help more quickly guide a player to kill less, that will be fine. Do we know the math yet to balance ghosting and killing? I did not see the math yet and the argument will persist until the math is shown.
The only thing we have to go on at the moment is how EM doled out the experience in DX:HR. If they do here what they did there, then we don't have much to worry about. Being stealthy is heavily rewarded over the more direct approaches, and successfully ghosting a mission gives you the largest amount of XP overall.
It was so uneven, I remember Koki bitching about how DX:HR stiffed more action oriented players with its stealth-preferred setup.
Though this comes back full to my old question of why Thief needs XP in the first place. I don't think it'll ruin the game completely, but it doesn't add anything to the Thief experience whatsoever. It'd be better to add more tools for Garrett to buy, rather than go with something so obviously gamey.
jtbalogh on 7/7/2013 at 23:07
Can the XP popup at least show the total to compare to (if EM says here to stay)?
[INDENT]"+40XP out of 100 headshot"[/INDENT]
[INDENT]"- 60XP out of 100 headshot"[/INDENT]
Show it like you just lost your potential XP. Showing a plus without any comparison usually indicates something good and a new player might just keep killing for more XP. There is no a contrary popup to compare with when walking past a guard and showing the amazing, "+100XP guard left active".
Do we think twice about a blood bath to hoard XP and losing out on some great 100XP (the exact value to be determined in demos later)? Just showing "+40XP headshot" currently does not indicate anything about losing XP. Didn't EM say earlier that new players dont usually analyze the math at the end of a mission which is why they made it a popup earlier in the game to show stealth will eventually get you more XP than aggression?
Extrapolated to a blackjack maybe ...
[INDENT]"+60XP out of 100 headshot"[/INDENT]
[INDENT]"- 40XP out of 100 headshot"[/INDENT]
Chade on 7/7/2013 at 23:25
Yeah, it's an interesting problem. It's probably better just to ensure that the player is told at the end of the mission how much xp he/she passed up due to not being stealthy (rather then having to do the math). That should solve the problem in the long run, without bothering the player in the middle of the mission.
Renz, as to why have xp in the first place, well ... keeping in mind that I would prefer it wasn't there ... it does give us something unique: a direct incentive for being stealthy (hopefully!). Thief never actually had that before: there were punishments for failing to sneak, tools to help you sneak, rewards for exploring, but not actual rewards directly linked to how stealthy you were.
jtbalogh on 7/7/2013 at 23:42
Quote Posted by Renzatic
The only thing we have to go on at the moment is how EM doled out the experience in DX:HR. If they do here what they did there, then we don't have much to worry about. Being stealthy is heavily rewarded over the more direct approaches, and successfully ghosting a mission gives you the largest amount of XP overall.
Thanks for checking renz. Can the math be maybe,
Code:
End of mission XP:
Guards dead 0 x 40XP = 0
Guards blackjack 5 x 60XP = 300XP
Guards active (alert 4) 0 x 10XP = 0
Guards active (alert 3) 0 x 40XP = 0
Guards active (alert 2) 0 x 60XP = 0
Guards active (alert 1) 0 x 100XP = 0
Guards active (alert 0) 15 x 100XP = 1500
Total = 1800XP
(I presume adjusting to also include the stealth score/alerts)
Code:
Other samples transposed,
Guards Guards Guards active . . . . . . . . . . . Totals
dead blackjack (alert 4) (a-3) (a-2) (a-1) (alert 0)
20 0 0 0 0 0 0 = 20 x 40XP = 800XP
0 0 0 0 0 0 20 = 20 x 100XP = 2000XP
5 0 0 0 0 0 15 = 5x40XP + 15x100XP = 1700XP
0 5 0 0 0 0 15 = 5x60XP + 15x100XP = 1800XP
EDIT: Thanks for checking too Chade. Just saw your post.
Shinrazero on 8/7/2013 at 00:00
I'm curious as to how XP is going to impact gameplay. Will areas be unavailable to us because we do not have the appropriate level, skill, or perk? Will Garrett eventually become super powered with awesome abilities? I have a hunch this is going to tie into focus in a big way. So many questions. I can't find it now but there was that joke email with the skill screen from DX:HR merged with Thief and there were various abilities to unlock. How far off could that be?
