Luthien on 24/6/2013 at 22:28
Quote Posted by Fandango
The Garrett never kills anyone idea is ONLY on Expert mode, which is something that almost no one would choose on their first play through ...
Personally, I bought TDP _because_ you were not allowed to kill on Expert, and I specifically played my very first game on Expert for that reason. Not that I want to fuel this discussion, but I'm not going to buy or play a thiefy game that has an XP system (I don't need external motivation) or headshot popups, again for the same reason. (By the way, I hated the T2 missions that _forced_ you to try ghosting.)
Anyway, if you just remember that TDP was great, TMA was good, TDS was crap (too linear, very limited and outright broken game mechanics, tiny levels, stupid story, streamlined for casual play), it's quite clear that T4 will be a heapload of dung in the eyes of Thief veterans, no matter what the devs do. ;)
Queue on 24/6/2013 at 23:07
Okay, so they don't unlock secret levels, garner swag, or enable unlimited nudity. Then they're basically a "who gives a shit" sort of thing, in the end.
So, you get XP points for doing a headshot...you also get XP points for being stealthy...and the points themselves are—well—pointless. I don't see the problem.
Goldmoon Dawn on 25/6/2013 at 00:21
Im pretty sure that EM is just making it up as they go. :)
You wanted Garrett, you got Garrett! You wanted shadows, we gave you shadows... on and on...
They already gutted the most crucial aspect of a true Thief game, that is to say free form exploration. It doesnt really matter anymore, I think most people here are either in shock or denial.
Chade on 25/6/2013 at 00:29
Wait, exploration is the most crucial element of a thief game? Silly me, I thought it was sneaking, that thing which was completely revolutionary in 1998.
Exploration is pretty cool too, admittedly.
Anyway, define free-form exploration. Low level movement controls are part of it, but level design is the bigger part.
demagogue on 25/6/2013 at 01:10
There's always been two factions on this, pro-exploration & discovery and pro-less exploration, more mission-driven. I like the former & it's important to me, but I can appreciate the latter sometimes too & understand why some people aren't as big fans of open ended exploration as core to the game. They're two different personalities in the game & people tend to line up on one side or the other, or one or the other depending on their mood.
Chade on 25/6/2013 at 01:16
I dunno, I don't feel like I'm "pro less exploration", as such. Exploration is great, and I'd love to see more of it. But I don't see how you can possibly justify calling exploration the *most crucial* element in thief.
There are lots of games out there featuring exploration, many of them doing more then thief does. There are no games out there that do stealth as well as thief. Stealth is the reason that thief is remembered today, and if that's not true for a handful of people in here, it is definitely true for the wider gaming community.
Most of these discussion are subjective, but to be totally honest, I think this is a pretty open and shut objective case.
Vae on 25/6/2013 at 01:19
Objectively, and regardless of preference, both are fundamental core design elements.
Yet again, NuThief fails to meet the basic prerequisite of a THIEF game.
Chade on 25/6/2013 at 01:22
I can go with that.
demagogue on 25/6/2013 at 01:37
I didn't word it well. There was a thread on this in the past, and it turned out for that thread there were some people saying Thief was at its core an exploration game, discovering things in the level & story, and some people saying it its core essentially a mission-based stealth game, figuring the best route to achieve your objectives. Both make exploration and stealth important elements, but I still feel there are two personalities where some people think exploration is the most important element & some people that think it's not and the gameplay or mission is the real central part.
I wasn't saying you were anti-exploration, just that your personality seems to be on the side where the stealth gameplay and fulfilling the objectives are really central to the game, and exploration is a nice thing on top of that, if you were like people in that other thread.
Goldmoon Dawn on 25/6/2013 at 01:42
Quote Posted by Chade
Anyway, define free-form exploration. Low level movement controls are part of it, but level design is the bigger part.
I wouldnt say its a bigger part at all! I would think that the two are equally as important as each other. Thief(4) will have huge open areas Im sure, but the controls are not "free form", meaning that you, um, wait a minute. You dont know what free form movement/exploration is?!?! And YES, I will say that at the core of what Thief: The Dark Project ultimately ended up being, is a very well crafted 3d physics simulator, much like what LGS has been working on since their inception. They morphed the game into the legendary "sneaker" that they did after the physics simulator was well in place.
