Thirith on 17/1/2019 at 09:32
I'm currently playing Celeste, which henke gifted me for Christmas as part of his ongoing plan to drive me to despair. So far, he's not been 100% successful, but I admit he's given it a very good effort. Celeste doesn't look like it, but it may just be the hardest game I've played, and definitely the hardest platformer, since Super Meat Boy. In parallel, I'm replaying Hollow Knight, and it's also quite tough, though it has more of an ebb and flow of quiet, easy parts and sections that are a major challenge, both in terms of combat and of platforming.
People often talk about the insane difficulty of 8-bit games, and I have to admit that I don't remember this all that much. Perhaps I was better back then, or I was more patient, or perhaps it's the opposite and I moved on more quickly to the next random game on my pile of 5 1/4" floppy disks that had fallen off the back of a truck, containing 100% legit games, of course. I remember never getting very far with Wizball (but loving the music and the guitar riff that would play every time I died). I remember Great Giana Sisters not being all that difficult. I never finished Impossible Mission, but I got through both the first and the second The Last Ninja games, and at least one of those was less than fair.
For me, it's really Super Meat Boy and now Celeste that are close to the top of the most difficult games I've played, though especially the latter mostly makes a distinction between difficult but doable mandatory screens and optional screens that are considerably harder. And with Super Meat Boy I have no recollection how I ever finished that one, though I suspect it's got something to do with performance-enhancing drugs.
So: what are the games you remember as most difficult? Which games kicked your asses and which games got their asses kicked by you after long, hard, strenuous battle?
demagogue on 17/1/2019 at 09:50
Celeste is difficult. (I'm playing through it currently as well.) But the hardest game I've seriously played through still has to be I Wanna Be the Guy. One difference is Celeste is still fair. IWBTG doesn't even have the pretense of being fair. It's a mix of really hard platforming and a good memory and reflexes for all the tricks it throws at you. But it's still very possible with enough play-throughs. You could say it's fair on the higher meta-level. (It throws tricks at you, but always the same tricks.)
Incidentally, my Xbox controller keeps losing power plugged into my laptop's USB slot, which is a new thing. I guess over time those ports lose their power-giving mojo. Anyway, nothing is more frustrating than a controller hesitating a jump or run when you're playing a game like Celeste! It's driving me crazy. I'll have to brave the cold to get new batteries for the controller I suppose.
icemann on 17/1/2019 at 09:54
Dragon's Lair on the NES. That game is just insane. The early Might and Magic games are stupid hard. Even if you grind XP, you can still get insta-wiped from a single bad encounter.
N'Al on 17/1/2019 at 10:19
Imo, I'd argue there needs to be a distinction between 'hard but fair' and 'bullshit hard'. Whilst the line between the two is probably quite subjective, I have to say that most games I've played recently with difficulty spikes have been in the latter category. Games where I felt the difficulty was purely the result of bad design or wonky controls.
The last 'hard but fair' game I can remember is Ninja Gaiden on the original Xbox. Having said that, I never actually finished it...
Sulphur on 17/1/2019 at 10:41
Yeah, I'm gonna echo demagogue and go with IWBTG. I gave it a try, saw the oceans of spikes awaiting me, and noped the fuck right out of there. I'm not that masochistic, though masocore games intrigue me conceptually and in theory.
Also, Cuphead's probably not that difficult, but when I saw that its side-scrolling levels essentially just respawned enemies infinitely while you ran through them, I probably had a knot on my forehead like you see in Japanese anime when someone's angry and about to explode. It's irrational, but it cheeses me off that you can't actually take your time platforming because you're constantly being bumped around by enemies, half the time from areas that you've already negotiated. I think I shelved it inside of five minutes.
As far as hardcore but doable and compelling is concerned, yeah, I don't think anything's going to trouble Nioh for that spot. Except Sekiro, maybe, when it comes out in a few months, and Nioh 2.
henke on 17/1/2019 at 10:43
I believe how hard a game is allowed to be before the player drops it is directly connected to how enjoyable it is. In Dark Souls I was fine spending hours replaying a tough bossfight, but when I failed a tougher section in Bioshock Infinite even once I was like "I'm gonna have to replay the entire last 5 minutes over again? Ugh, pass.".
Because of this tilted playing field it's hard to judge what's actually the hardest game. I've certainly given up more on not-very-fun but moderately-difficult games more than on great but hard games.
If we're talking just platformers I did give up on Super Meat Boy halfway through whereas I stuck with Celeste till the end, though that might have more to do with being emotionally invested in Celeste's story and wanting to see it through, whereas SMB just felt like a series of levels and I didn't feel any compulsion to get to the end.
Starker on 17/1/2019 at 10:51
From the old games, Ghosts 'n Goblins immediately comes to mind. I also only barely made it past the turbo tunnels in Battletoads but gave up shortly after that. Of the ones that were actually fun to play, though, IMO the original Castlevania threaded the line between difficult and unreasonable pretty well. Nethack took some time to master, but it's actually not all that difficult once you know what you're doing -- it's just that it takes a lot of time and experience to get to the point where you can ascend reliably. God Hand was an absolute blast and the one game I wish got a remaster.
As far as modern games are concerned, I really like La-Mulana and I've almost finished the second one too. Hotline Miami was a lot of chaotic fun, but the second one was kind of meh. Rain World has been kicking my ass to the point I'm not sure I want to play it any more. Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy was a nice surprise from the Humble Originals and oddly satisfying to play while listening to podcasts. From roguelites, FTL and Spelunky are still my go-to games. Not sure if I should include Binding of Isaac, as the difficulty kind of depends a lot on the items you get.
Sulphur on 17/1/2019 at 10:51
Quote Posted by henke
I believe how hard a game is allowed to be before the player drops it is directly connected to how enjoyable it is. In Dark Souls I was fine spending hours replaying a tough bossfight, but when I failed a tougher section in Bioshock Infinite I was like "I'm gonna have to replay
the entire last 5 minutes over again? Ugh, pass."
Binfinite wasn't that hard though, it just had not-great gameplay (I dunno about checkpointing issues though). Like your experience with Celeste, I wanted to see what the heck happened in the end. (Turns out it wasn't all that great, but it made a sort of emotional sense. Also the best Bioshock game after BS1 was the whole Burial at Sea DLC, which made finishing Binfinite and BS1 retroactively worth it.)
WingedKagouti on 17/1/2019 at 10:54
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Yeah, I'm gonna echo demagogue and go with IWBTG. I gave it a try, saw the oceans of spikes awaiting me, and noped the fuck right out of there. I'm not that masochistic, though masocore games intrigue me conceptually and in theory.
And if you watch GDQ you'll see other games heavily inspired by IWBTG. Part of what makes IWBTG and clones difficult is not so much the visible layout of the game, but all the hidden triggers for sudden things you need to avoid along with otherwise "safe" items being dangerous at seemingly random.
demagogue on 17/1/2019 at 11:49
IWBTG is about incessant re-play, and you go in knowing there are going to be the hidden triggers and already gearing up for your next go to handle that trigger. For me, it's kind of puzzle like (how do I get around this trigger?), and I'll try a number of times. Only if I really don't get it, I'll watch a walkthrough video. What makes the game work for me (or at the time I played it) is just getting into the zen of repeated mindless muscle memory motions. If that kind of thing is what you want, this game works. It's got humor to its masochism too. And believe it or not, one does develop a skill for handling its tricks over time that makes it easier going.
I made it through I think three or four bosses before other things pulled me away, so a sizable chunk of it. Some of the screens took, I don't know, it's possible some of them hit 100+ attempts before I cleared them. (Celeste is about 30 or 40 on the hardest levels it feels like; but even those are rare screens.) I'd only recommend IWBTG to people -- well I'd recommend it to anyone to play around just in the first area for the pure kick of it -- but any further only if they're into the whole zen thing.
