catbarf on 15/6/2016 at 16:57
Quote Posted by faetal
Catbarf - I have to go away and have a think about this for a bit.
Answer me these though if you want to:
Take your time, and today I'm compiling a lot of code at work, so sure.
Quote Posted by faetal
1) Is there a problem with guns in the US?
Yes and no. I'm sorry that's not a straight answer, but what I've been trying to get at in this thread is that I think fundamentally we have a problem with violence which is exacerbated by guns. If I say yes, there is a problem with guns, then I'm ignoring the rising income inequality, destruction of blue-collar work, war on drugs, war on crime, the media's glorification of mass shooters, and all the other factors that even if guns were banned would continue to produce violent crime and mass attacks (eg Boston marathon bombing). If I say no, there is not a problem with guns, then I'm ignoring the obvious role that guns play in making violent crime more lethal. As Switzerland and New Zealand show, the mere presence of guns is not implicitly the problem, and as the UK and Australia show, the mere absence of guns is not a cure for violence- it's the presence of guns combined with people who wish to do harm with them that is the problem, and I think we have to tackle it from both ends.
Quote Posted by faetal
2) Where does this happen and who to?
For most homicides, it happens in cities like Chicago, Detroit, DC, LA, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, to teenagers and young adults, disproportionately minorities, trapped in a broken social system and forced to turn to gangs for protection and to make a living. For some violent crime, it happens in cities and suburbs, to ordinary people trying to go about their lives, targeted by a criminal underclass that exists because of the failure of the American system to adequately provide for its citizens. For an extremely small fraction of violent crime, it happens in high-profile acts of terrorism against the general populace, usually in gun-free zones, committed by ideological extremists and people with severe mental health issues who never got the treatment they needed. These are all separate issues with different perpetrators, motives, methods, and targets, which is why I think focusing on guns as the commonality is insufficient.
Quote Posted by faetal
3) How to curtail?
Per 1), this needs a two-pronged approach. So I'd say-
For guns:
-Require background checks on all purchases. Under current law this would mean all transfers having to go through Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders, but I'd rather open up the NICS to non-FFL holders and develop a system for non-FFL holders to report transfers to the ATF. People are less likely to ignore the law if it's easy to comply with.
-Allocate funding to ensuring state-level criminal and psychological data is shared with the FBI. A background check does no good if the data isn't in the system.
-Allocate funding to ATF's FFL regulation. Currently, on average an FFL holder will be audited by the ATF once every 27 years. One of the big sources of illegal firearms is unscrupulous sellers doing off-the-books transactions, and that needs to end ASAP.
-Allocate funding to the DoJ to pursue straw purchases, or obligate the states to prosecute. Straw purchases are one of the primary sources of firearms used in crime so it's extremely disappointing that the DoJ currently refuses to prosecute in most cases and people get away with knowingly buying guns for felons.
-Hold gun owners responsible for the safe storage of their firearms. Stolen guns are another big source of illicit firearms and the careless way some people keep their guns is downright negligent. I'm not sure how best to implement this without incentivizing gun owners to not report theft, but IMO there should be safe storage requirements in the law.
-Restrict handguns with a simple, nation-wide system. Create a handgun license system, distributed on a 'shall-issue' basis subject to a comprehensive background check and live fire training, which is necessary to purchase a handgun but entitles the user to nation-wide concealed carry. Handguns represent over 90% of firearm homicides in this country so restricting them, and the ability to carry them, to people of clean background and proper training seems necessary, but gun-free zones have proven entirely ineffective in dissuading crime and concealed carriers have a much lower rate of criminal offense than the general populace, so I think establishing concealed-carry as a nation-wide concept is reasonable.
-Because many gun owners would otherwise strongly oppose several of the above limitations on their FREEDOM, throw them a bone by deregulating suppressors and reopening the NFA machine gun registry. Suppressors are actually easier to get in the UK than in the US, because despite being a practical safety device with the side effect of keeping the neighbors happy, they were used by American poachers in the 20s so were restricted in the 1934 NFA. Registered machine guns (which require a $200 tax stamp and 6-12 months of ATF investigation and approval to buy) have only been involved in crimes twice since 1934, both involving off-duty police officers and one which was ruled self-defense, so there wasn't much justification for closing the registry in the first place. Give gun owners the ability to buy affordable full-auto range toys again following all the same hoops they currently jump through for NFA items and they'd probably welcome restrictions on handguns, storage, and private sale with open arms.
For society:
-Make our criminal justice system focus on rehabilitation, not punishment. Career criminals are made through harsh systems of increasing punishments and the stigma that follows a conviction. People who have served their time need more support in becoming productive members of society again instead of reoffending. The for-profit prison system is undoubtedly a part of this that needs to change.
-Tying in with that, reduce punishments for minor crimes. Being caught with a few ounces of weed should not be a several-year offense that kills any job prospects you might have upon release. That's a surefire way to keep people stuck in crime as their only way to get by.
-Educate the public about mental health and provide better access to support. Mental health is stigmatized, and groups that blame nebulous 'mental illness' for shootings don't help. When combat veterans suffering from PTSD are afraid to seek treatment because they'll be treated like mass murderers in waiting, there's a problem. We need more comprehensive and discreet mental healthcare available to the public, and people need to be able to recognize warning signs in others. Every single high-profile mass shooting in the last decade has been preceded by a long, long laundry list of people noticing that there's something really wrong with the shooter, but failing to act.
-The media needs to stop glorifying mass shooters with weeks-long media frenzies over every aspect of their lives. What many of these shooters do is textbook terrorism- they're demanding attention to a cause through violence, and the media is all-too-eager to give it to them. Our rates of violent crime have dropped over the last few decades, but spree shootings have risen sharply in recent years, and each attack provokes copycats.
-Income inequality, unemployment, the destruction of blue-collar jobs- the poor are getting poorer and if fixing it is too optimistic, we at least need some safety nets. Optimally, I think some New Deal-style public development, using tax money to both create housing and put people to work, would give a way out for a lot of people stuck in gangs and poverty.
-Police systems nation-wide need serious reform. A lot of attention has been drawn to racial bias, but there are more fundamental issues. Many cops are assigned to work in areas away from their hometown, and the disappearance of beat cops as a policing method has distanced the police from the public. Police officers are no longer seen as fellow citizens or neighbors, they're an 'other' to be avoided when possible. A focus on making profit through traffic citations and civil forfeiture only further poisons the well. If police can regain the trust of the people they're supposed to serve, not only will there be less reliance on guns for protection, but gangs will lose a lot of their power.
I know a lot of that is very political and you may disagree with me on some or all of my proposed solutions, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this.
Quote Posted by faetal
4) What final scenario do you see as favourable vis gun ownership in general?
To be honest, I can't see any 'final scenario' because this issue is so contingent on the circumstances. In 1920 you could buy handguns functionally identical to those of today with almost no restrictions and at much lower prices (even accounting for inflation), yet we didn't have such a huge problem with handguns being used in crime. In 1965 you could buy an AR-15, even a full-auto one if you so desired, and we didn't have a spree shooting every year. Even just political ideas change over time- concealed carry, for example, is much more accepted today than it was in 1996. So I think we have to work with the circumstances in talking about how best to address the laws. Although our homicide rate has dropped over the past ten years, if mass shootings continue to worsen despite efforts to address them a buyback and restriction like Australia is inevitable. If we can fix some of these problems and reduce crime through the reforms I listed, maybe personal ownership can continue without drastic changes, like New Zealand. Only time will tell- and don't even get me started on how 3D printing or practical coilgun technology could influence these issues.
As guiding principles for our current situation, though, I believe handguns should be more heavily restricted than long guns, concealed carry should be codified on a nation-wide rather than state-level basis, our current laws especially regarding background checks should be more effectively enforced before we add new ones, the root causes of our violence cannot be addressed with gun laws, scapegoating assault weapons is sorely unproductive, and if we want to start talking about compromise there are a number of unjustified restrictions on the books that could be lifted in exchange for further restriction where it's needed.
And Piglick, Scumble, as for living in the US- I imagine you guys would probably be surprised at how little most of the US resembles what the media depicts. It's a big country, and issues that are obvious in a place like Detroit are all but invisible in a place like Manhattan. As much as we talk about our epidemic levels of violence, most suburbanites never interact with the police, see people carrying guns in public, or have to confront a home invader. It's the 'out of sight, out of mind' nature of a lot of our problems, and the enormous diversity of experience, that makes it hard to come to agreement on how to resolve our issues. But hey, we're worth visiting.
