nicked on 4/6/2016 at 10:29
Absolutely - in that way it's the same as anything dangerous. A stricter system could still make plenty of allowances for sport, clubs etc. Imagine if dangerous animal laws were as lax as gun laws, and everyone could own a tiger.
"I'm a responsible tiger owner, I keep my tiger locked up safe in my large garden with proper security fences etc. Why should I be denied my tiger ownership because of those thousands of people that got mauled and eaten by tigers last year?"
I thought Obama had some eloquent things to say on the subject recently (guns, not tenuous tiger metaphors :)):
[video=youtube;6imFvSua3Kg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg[/video]
heywood on 4/6/2016 at 11:37
Quote Posted by scumble
When you talk of a hobby like that it's still possible to get a license to own rifles in the UK and shoot for fun. I know someone who went through that whole process. I realised that despite the increasing levels of gun control in the UK it's still possible to get fairly serious weaponry if you have the patience.
So this feeling of safety from people with guns because there's no obvious gun culture seems a bit weird when there are a good number of people who own rifles with scopes and so on.
I'm not that impressed with the "guns for protection" argument or the "strong gun control makes us safer" argument either. What's more important is the context of the country that they are in, or the social class of the society you are looking at.
When I was working in the UK I met a couple guys who were into shooting. They told me it was pretty easy to own a rifle or shotgun, and getting a permit from the local police was not hard. I was also told that in parts of Scotland, organized hunting was a significant source of revenue and tourism.
Sometimes in these debates, I get the impression there is hardly any gun ownership in Europe. But then I look at these stats:
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country)
Are European gun owners just silent, or what?
Starker on 4/6/2016 at 13:01
Quote Posted by heywood
Are European gun owners just silent, or what?
A lot of these are just for hunting, especially in Scandinavia. And some of it is national guard type of paramilitary stuff. The Swiss are a special case.
I don't think it's all that unreasonable to have a ratio of something like 1 gun per 5 people, especially if most of them are for national defence or sport or hunting. What's bonkers is if there are more guns than people and just about anyone can have a gun for any reason.
faetal on 4/6/2016 at 14:26
In the UK at least, if you have a firearms license, you are monitored regularly by the police - have to submit to inspections etc...
scumble on 4/6/2016 at 19:27
Quote Posted by faetal
In the UK at least, if you have a firearms license, you are monitored regularly by the police - have to submit to inspections etc...
The trouble is that I find it hard to believe this is any guarantee of safety from misuse of firearms. I mainly think of the actual rarity of crazy mass murders. Aren't we talking about a similar risk to being killed in a terrorist attack?
I wouldn't be surprised if we're massively more likely to get hit by a bus. You can say why add more risk from allowing gun ownership, yet statistically speaking other things have greater risk to people in general.
I wouldn't be a promoter of guns but I think the emotive engagement in the debate massively outstrips the actual risk even in the US.
Nobody wants to get shot but nobody wants to die from a heart attack or a jet ski crash. Or as collateral damage in a drone attack.
Starker on 4/6/2016 at 19:34
Quote Posted by scumble
The trouble is that I find it hard to believe this is any guarantee of safety from misuse of firearms. I mainly think of the actual rarity of crazy mass murders. Aren't we talking about a similar risk to being killed in a terrorist attack?
Yes, but we do try to prevent terrorist attacks. We don't just go, "Ah, f*ck it, them's the breaks." Likewise, it might make sense to try to prevent someone from stockpiling weapons and ammo. At least it will be easier to do when it's illegal.
As for the chances, yes, mass shootings are somewhat rare, even though you hear about them a lot when they do happen. Overall, though, from what I remember, gun related deaths are somewhat comparable to motor vehicle accidents in the US, but I haven't looked at the latest data.
faetal on 4/6/2016 at 20:26
Quote Posted by scumble
The trouble is that I find it hard to believe this is any guarantee of safety from misuse of firearms.
A small pool of gun owners, all of whom are on the police radar. Certainly a lot easier to contain than everyone potentially being armed after a trip to Walmart.
bjack on 5/6/2016 at 06:06
Faetlal, in California, I cannot buy a gun at Walmart. Walmart only sells air rifles and some pop guns in CA. I can buy ammo, but only in very limited quantities. Do some research before you spout off, OK? Don't just parrot leftist shit. We cannot buy guns at gun shows without a long wait period and a federal background check. We cannot buy guns in other states, without going through a middle man broker and still the long wait and federal background check. We can buy online, but have to go through the same said middle man broker and background check. THERE IS NO GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE, OK???? Stop buying into the Democratic SHIT storm. Be a little more informed. Not the “verbose douchebag” you are. OK? You are extremely harsh with me on other topics. Well on this one, you are the extremely ignorant about California law. You may speak for your own area, but shut up about mine, OK? You don't know the first thing about this area. Shut up. Pompous ass. Love and kisses... ;) bjack...
faetal on 5/6/2016 at 09:07
In some states you can buy guns in supermarkets.
California doesn't nullify the statement that in America, you can buy guns in supermarkets.
I guess this is what I meant by defensive and pissy.
heywood on 5/6/2016 at 11:48
Quote Posted by Starker
A lot of these are just for hunting, especially in Scandinavia. And some of it is national guard type of paramilitary stuff. The Swiss are a special case.
I don't think it's all that unreasonable to have a ratio of something like 1 gun per 5 people, especially if most of them are for national defence or sport or hunting. What's bonkers is if there are more guns than people and just about anyone can have a gun for any reason.
The ranking I posted was based on civilian guns. I'm sure that most of them are used for shooting sports or hunting, but the same is true probably everywhere except places like Iraq and Yemen.
Quote Posted by faetal
A small pool of gun owners, all of whom are on the police radar. Certainly a lot easier to contain than everyone potentially being armed after a trip to Walmart.
UK: A million gun owners with 4 million guns, only half of which are registered.
France: 10 million gun owners with 19 million guns, <3M registered
Source: (
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/home)
You really think the police are on top of that?
