Guns - TTLG Forums

scumble on 3/6/2016 at 12:19

Quote Posted by faetal

Even if you're right, the trading of opinions can be useful - you never know when someone might say something which changes your mind a little. It might happen weeks after they said it.

I know I'm expecting too much with wanting internet discussions to be calm and logical. But it bothers me when people start on ad hominem arguments even if they are indirect - i.e. you aren't seeing my obvious great point because you're an ignorant fool etc.

It's also easier for people to say things about some issue when they aren't put on the line to actually solve a problem.

There is also the old confirmation bias trap - anyone is likely to pick examples supporting their opinion unless they fight against it.

Quote Posted by nicked

The US attitude toward guns never ceases to amaze me, just because it is so unique to the US. Nowhere else in the world would anyone ever suggest that you could stop mass shootings if more people had guns, because... well... duh!? But somehow that seems to be a fairly common opinion in America. Yet to an outsider to that warped gun fetish culture, it makes as much sense as saying you could stop wildfires by putting a flamethrower in every home.

The ideal seems to be that anyone carrying a gun has the steadiness and presence of mind to face down an attacker. I suspect in reality no-one knows unless they're put into a life or death situation involving firearms. I've certainly got no idea how i'd react.

Quote Posted by Ryan Smith

All that matters in a situation where a gun is needed: Who has it and who doesn't?

You won't have time to worry whether or not it's illegal; if you've got one pointed at your face, best you do something about it.

I think a lot of people are going to fold in that situation hoping to get through without provoking further conflict. Is one's wallet with a bit of cash in it worth the chance of fatal injury?

These days I tend to see a very uncertain picture when imagining real encounters.

SD on 3/6/2016 at 17:16

Quote Posted by bassoferrol

That guy must live in an insane country.
I've never seen someone carrying a gun for personal protection in Spain. And I don't know a single person who has a weapon at home.
But that's the price you have to pay if you live in places where violence is the rule. So sad.

Having just returned from 12 days in Spain, where I was once again the target of numerous snarling hounds (bitten once) merely for having the gall to walk along public roads and footpaths, I am almost converted to the pro-gun cause.

Seems thoroughly absurd that guns are banned as deadly weapons when a dog can be just as dangerous and far more random, especially in the incompetent hands of the Spanish, for whom muzzles and leads appear to be technological advances too far.

By the end I had taken to carrying a walking stick, not to assist me with walking, rather to give me a modicum of protection against slavering fucking hellbeasts.

Krush on 3/6/2016 at 17:42

Quote Posted by nicked

the last thing I'd ever want to do is aggravate the gunman further by stressing him out with my own gun.

Nicked doesn't want to "stress out" her rapist! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Not much more you can say to that. That attitude why Europe is getting rekt by armies of rapefugees.

Pyrian on 3/6/2016 at 18:06

Quote Posted by SD

Seems thoroughly absurd that guns are banned as deadly weapons when a dog can be just as dangerous and far more random...

A few 'Muricans are killed per year by dogs triggering guns, sooo...

heywood on 3/6/2016 at 18:10

scumble -

For the vast majority of gun owners I know or have met in real life, more than 9 out of 10 anyway, gun ownership is not about personal protection. It's part of a hobby, either shooting or hunting or collecting. I'd like to be able to have a conversation about our hobbies without falling into a debate about whether armed vigilantes are good or bad for society. That particular aspect of gun ownership and gun policy is like a gravity well that drags down every gun related conversation. Regardless of how civil people are, discussions on that topic go nowhere and bring no new points to light.

faetal on 3/6/2016 at 22:05

Quote Posted by Ryan Smith

You won't have time to worry whether or not it's illegal; if you've got one pointed at your face, best you do something about it.

So let me get this straight - if someone has a gun pointed at you, the logical thing is to attempt to draw your own gun? Is there some honour system in the US where attackers wait for you get yours ready?

scumble on 3/6/2016 at 22:41

Quote Posted by heywood

When you talk of a hobby like that it's still possible to get a license to own rifles in the UK and shoot for fun. I know someone who went through that whole process. I realised that despite the increasing levels of gun control in the UK it's still possible to get fairly serious weaponry if you have the patience.

So this feeling of safety from people with guns because there's no obvious gun culture seems a bit weird when there are a good number of people who own rifles with scopes and so on.

I'm not that impressed with the "guns for protection" argument or the "strong gun control makes us safer" argument either. What's more important is the context of the country that they are in, or the social class of the society you are looking at.

Volitions Advocate on 4/6/2016 at 01:22

Quote Posted by scumble

What's more important is the context of the country that they are in, or the social class of the society you are looking at.

This is one of the best things I've read in this post. I'm too exhausted to respond to everything in the last page or so of this thread that I consider dumb, reactionary, presumptuous or inaccurate. So I'll just agree with you there.

There really is very little effort put forth by either side of this debate to seriously consider the good arguments of the other. Here or otherwise.

nicked on 4/6/2016 at 05:48

Well that and the fact that the process to go through to get a gun is so much harder in the UK that it rules out all but the most dedicated psychopaths, or professional criminals. So it's much less likely that there'll be a gun in any normal social situation. Yes, someone could still go through the process of getting a gun and shooting you in the UK if they really wanted to, but it's not gonna be a spur-of-the-moment, rage-fuelled trip to Walmart.

faetal on 4/6/2016 at 09:23

I'm pretty sure criminals go via the black market.

One of the problems with debating this is that responsible gun owners get all defensive because they think there is some objection to them owning guns. There isn't. If there was a realistic way to just give guns to people who are responsible and would never use them against another person etc.. there'd be not problem - but there is no perfect system. Any system inherently has false positives and false negatives. A very strict system denies guns to a lot of people who are probably not going to use them - they then get pissy and defensive about their rights. A too lax system gives guns equally to the responsible and the not so responsible. Even the sweet spot between strict and lax gives guns to or takes guns from the wrong people.

The debate is about letting everyone have them. The way I see it, with universal ownership, your trade-off is high rate of gun deaths, mass shootings, suicides and general fear of living in society without being armed with a gun to match the guns of people who want to rob / rape / murder you*. If you think that trade off is worth it for you to have your gun, then OK. I just personally prefer to forego my right to gun ownership so that I never really have to worry about encountering a gun in a non-fun way.

* And I remain to be convinced that any but the rarest situations put you in a position where you are able to get your gun into play without being shot, since there is a rarely any kind of warning that someone is going to threaten or shoot you you with a gun