heywood on 14/7/2018 at 16:21
Guys, it doesn't matter what question you're asking. This is very simple.
If you ask for her phone number and she says no, she doesn't want you to call or text her.
If you ask her to dance and she says no, she doesn't want to dance with you (or she doesn't want to dance period, whatever).
If you ask her to go out for coffee or a drink and she says no, she doesn't want to have coffee or a drink with you.
If you ask her for a kiss and she says no, she doesn't want to kiss you.
Note you can be forgiven for asking for too much too early. For example, if you're dancing with a girl at a club and you ask her if she wants to go back to your place for sex and she says no, you can reasonably follow up by asking her if she would like to go out for a date sometime. And if she says no to that, you leave it.
If she doesn't want to do what you asked right now but she's possibly interested in taking you up on the offer some other time, she will let you know. But if she says "maybe some other time" or "maybe later", that's not what she means. "Maybe some other time" is a hard brush-off.
No matter what you're asking for, "no" does not mean "please keep badgering me because I'm a weak minded girl and might give in if you keep pushing".
Tocky on 14/7/2018 at 17:31
Quote Posted by Starker
You'd think that if you have to chase a woman all over your apartment, it would be a clear sign that something's wrong. Apparently not. Also, she gave the BJ only briefly, because she felt she had to, not because she was up for anything. When someone pressures a woman into doing something sexual for them, it doesn't therefore mean that she's mentally deficient if she feels uncomfortable and doesn't want to go any further.
It may be a generational thing but your third sentence blows my mind. As for the chase, they sat naked side by side on the couch of her own volition. Not much of a chase. When she finally said no he stopped and offered to watch TV with her. She still tried to hurt him after. No. There is something wrong with that woman. At ANY time she could have said no and left but chose to give him a BJ instead. In her head there are some dots not connected. I feel sorry for her mental state and I think all guys should avoid her but that's the best I can muster on that.
Starker on 14/7/2018 at 20:45
Is it really that inexplicable that a young inexperienced person might be pressured into doing things? Especially if it's a celebrity she's starstruck with?
She didn't say no to him, she told him to not force her, and the reason why she stayed was because he appeared to be understanding of that, but he then completely ignored her wishes and kept trying to hump her like a horny teenager.
Also, why is it women's responsibility to police men's behaviour? If a woman pulls away her hand, doesn't kiss you back, keeps moving away from you, you'd think that it would be a clear sign that the woman is feeling uncomfortable.
Finally, we don't know why she went public with the story. It could have been that she wanted to hurt him back, but could as well have been that she wanted to show that he isn't the woke feminist that he portrays himself to be.
Vae on 14/7/2018 at 21:31
Quote Posted by Tocky
It may be a generational thing but your third sentence blows my mind. As for the chase, they sat naked side by side on the couch of her own volition. Not much of a chase. When she finally said no he stopped and offered to watch TV with her. She still tried to hurt him after. No. There is something wrong with that woman. At ANY time she could have said no and left but chose to give him a BJ instead. In her head there are some dots not connected. I feel sorry for her mental state and I think all guys should avoid her but that's the best I can muster on that.
Agreed...There is the general problem of neurosis and psychosis when dealing with a certain percentage of the population, and her irrational and incongruent behavior would indicate a psychological issue.
Starker on 14/7/2018 at 23:13
Regardless of whether a man can be a woke feminist or not, that's the image Aziz has cultivated for himself. And the impetus for going public apparently came from her seeing him wear the Time's Up pin at the Golden Globe awards:
Quote:
For Grace, the Golden Globes brought the events back to the forefront of her mind. “It was actually painful to watch him win and accept an award,” she said. “And absolutely cringeworthy that he was wearing the Time's Up pin. I think that started a new fire, and it kind of made it more real.”
And that image was also the reason she put up with him as long as she did and why she kept giving him second chances in the first place:
Quote:
Speaking to babe, Grace mentioned the glaring gap between Ansari's comedy persona and the behavior she experienced in his apartment as a reason why she didn't get out earlier. “I didn't leave because I think I was stunned and shocked,” she said. “This was not what I expected. I'd seen some of his shows and read excerpts from his book and I was not expecting a bad night at all, much less a violating night and a painful one.”
Tocky on 15/7/2018 at 07:09
Quote Posted by Starker
Is it really that inexplicable that a young inexperienced person might be pressured into doing things? Especially if it's a celebrity she's starstruck with?
She didn't say no to him, she told him to not force her, and the reason why she stayed was because he appeared to be understanding of that, but he then completely ignored her wishes and kept trying to hump her like a horny teenager.
Also, why is it women's responsibility to police men's behaviour? If a woman pulls away her hand, doesn't kiss you back, keeps moving away from you, you'd think that it would be a clear sign that the woman is feeling uncomfortable.
Finally, we don't know why she went public with the story. It could have been that she wanted to hurt him back, but could as well have been that she wanted to show that he isn't the woke feminist that he portrays himself to be.
Didn't want to hold his hand after she gave him a BJ huh? Didn't put on clothes and backed away as far as the couch where she sat next to him giving him the chance to talk of kittens and butterflies instead of the fact they were BOTH NAKED on a couch. You seriously have to stretch her story to make her a victim here. Guess what? People get horny. Particularly when they are naked with another naked person they find attractive. Want to stop that? PUT ON SOME CLOTHES. That's not even remotely hard to figure out. But yeah, a no at some point would be good. Okay, she wanted him to go slow buuuuuuuuut hello she had given him a BJ. That's like getting to third gear and then trying to jam the stick in reverse. You CAN do it if you are forceful but it's not the normal progression of gears. Normally fourth gear comes next.
And sure, why is it the woman's place to police? Why couldn't he be the one to give her fellatio then just as she is so worked up she can't stand it and is begging for it pull away and act coy? She did get fellatio with never a no from her but he wasn't good at it in her estimation. Had he been good I doubt the story would have turned out the same. She would have been the same level of worked up because guess what? Women love sex too. Sex isn't some dirty thing men force on women. It's something everyone enjoys and looking at it any other way is unhealthy. A guy just has to keep looking for any signal no matter how small, or at what stage apparently, that he should back away because the woman might just be a nut. Figuring that out will save him a lot of misery. So absolutely go slow guys. Do a LOT of talking. Figure out before the deed if it is worth her possibly being one of the crazy ones. The crazy ones are vengeful and spiteful and if they don't get what they want will hurt you. I'm lucky. I'm able to go from third to reverse. For those who can't figure the gear pattern don't risk getting out of neutral. Hell, it's not a race anyway.
Here is the scary part though, at some point he did figure out she was crazy. He had already told her it's no fun if both aren't into it and I think he meant that. Then when the signal became less muddled he DID shift from third to reverse. He was willing to just sit with her and watch TV. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. People don't usually do it naked so he put on pants and backed off. At that point she hated him. He hadn't been as slow or as good a lover as she wanted. It happens I guess. Believe it or not I've regretted being with a woman who really wasn't very good in bed. But it never occurred to me to be vengeful about it. I'm not crazy. And I certainly would never want to be with a woman who would be. He should have run from her a lot quicker. He should never have let it get to the clothes off stage. That's why talking is so very important. You have to know before anything starts if they are unbalanced.
It's not always easy to figure out one another's quirks, particularly sexually, and there are some legitimately damaged individuals to feel badly for. The ones vengeful because the sex wasn't exactly as they would like? Nah. Vengeful because he wasn't a woke enough feminist to know how to give fellatio right and read mixed signals? Nah.
Starker on 15/7/2018 at 09:58
You're so hung up about the BJ, huh? He kept pursuing her around the apartment and she was busy telling him to slow down. She didn't just pull her hand away before and after the brief BJ, but continuously showed her discomfort in multiple other ways. If a woman keeps moving away from you and is sending other clear signals that she's not into it, yeah, absolutely you should stop and ask what's wrong. It didn't even occur him to ask.
It has less to do with technique and more with treating women as human beings and not pressuring them into sex without a regard to what they want.
She wasn't vengeful because he isn't a woke enough feminist, she was angry because he flouts his image as a woke feminist while treating women this way.
Tocky on 15/7/2018 at 17:51
Hung up about it? It's not even third base. It's one foot dangling over home plate. Or on home plate if you are of that bent. I'm sure even woke guys like sex. I'm sure celebrities are used to women throwing themselves at them for just a one night stand. It happens to even non celebrity guys. Nothing wrong with it. He didn't chase her any farther than the couch. Easy enough to think that is where she was leading him. Did you miss the part about her being naked? She didn't put on her clothes and back away and she backed no farther than the couch. Often times we only have the bare facts to go by. A persons internal world is not on the outside. In retrospect it's obvious she is damaged and should be backed away from. That night he went too quick to figure that out. He was likely used to quick. Celebrity skews normal relations.
She dumped her boyfriend for a rung up the ladder. She wanted the celebrity life it seems to me, and just because of that decision, but maybe I read that wrong. It's just based on previous experience but that's all any of us have to go by. A lot of women are ladder climbers and we all know it. Maybe he used that to go farther or maybe he was too caught up in his own celebrity to pick up on clues that to her were obvious but to any outsider could not be discerned. They both were self centered and not other centered as it should be with sex. That much is obvious surely?
So how did he treat her? He pursued her naked to a couch where he thought what they had started would be continued. You can say I'm hung up on the clothes thing now but going at it in different rooms is also a part of sex. He had that expectation because of what came before. She didn't get the girlfriend experience of being the one on his arm at gala parties on yachts. She saw this coming that she would be a one night stand perhaps but never put her clothes back on. There was still some hope the flash bulbs would go off on her smiling face. Ah the glam to come! I would give her more leeway here but for the dumping of her boyfriend. Well damn. He just wanted sex (and nothing wrong with that even, happens with both men and women). It might have developed into the girlfriend thing HAD she gone that last little bit. But she became afraid it wouldn't and closed the lid on that. She finally said no, or rather acted a bit off enough that he saw her discomfort. He backed off. No reason to be vengeful because she couldn't be the one on his arm at the ceremony. But she was. He wasn't woke enough to read her signals well enough so he must pay. He has. He is damn well going to be jumpy from now on. Every time a woman stops smiling because she is thinking of something else or moves her hand because it is sweaty he is going to go to think she is pulling away and it's time for him to run. Now he will be damaged too. Good job vengeful woman.
I have only my own experience to go by so I may be wrong in some way but certain clues stand out and yeah, I can't just ignore them. I have only the greatest sympathy for the truly damaged. A great deal of empathy for those who make a relationship with them as well. Not so much with those who cause damage. Perhaps they do so because someone damaged them but they don't have to pass it on.
Starker on 15/7/2018 at 19:44
I don't know what counts as third base in America where teens practice anal sex as a form of abstinence.
He chased her all over the apartment, until she excused herself to the bathroom. They only went on the couch after he agreed to chill and stop forcing her. And the fact that she didn't sit beside him is a pretty big hint in and of itself. And did you miss the part where he had to undress her? She didn't really show any initiative at any point. Again, if a girl doesn't kiss you back, moves away her hand, moves away from you in general so that you have to chase her, says she doesn't want to end up hating you... that's a pretty big sign something's not right. You'd think.
As for motivations, it's easy to think the worst of a person, sure. If someone goes on a date with a richer person than them, maybe they are only after that person's money. She was clearly starstruck, and maybe she had ulterior motives, going on a date with a celebrity. But one thing seems quite certain -- Ansari behaved without any regard to her comfort or wishes.
Also, nowhere does it say she had a boyfriend, let alone that she dumped him. It only says that she had a date to the event where she met Ansari. If you go to an event and bring someone along, that doesn't necessarily mean you're romantically involved.
It's very easy in hindsight to say what she should have done or how she should have behaved. I'm not sure if it's that easy in the heat of the moment for someone who's shocked and confused and might have never experienced something like this before -- she did say it had been the worst evening in her entire life.
Tocky on 15/7/2018 at 23:01
Well the worst was him putting her hand where HE wanted it to be and maybe she didn't say no earlier and went along with the undressing because she was inexperienced. It's possible she was tongue tied with emotion or confusion or something as I'm sure his fingers weren't constantly in her throat. For some reason she didn't speak up earlier when it most counted. Going along with the BJ still confuses me. She DID sit next to him on the couch first at his feet and then while they were making out after the BJ. The whole thing is odd to me. He pushed too hard no doubt. I don't get the hard sell. My pride wouldn't let me be aggressive. There has to be reciprocation for me at every step. But I don't get the not putting clothes back on or the BJ either. That certainly wasn't a hard no. I'm just glad I don't have to navigate today's dating world. It sure wasn't anal abstinence back in my day.
I got the boyfriend thing from another article. I hadn't read this one in some time and was working from memory so maybe I got some things wrong though. I'm not entirely certain or anything. The whole situation was far from certain. All the more reason not to cement it in stone condemnation for the world to see I would have thought.