SD on 16/1/2018 at 16:58
Quote Posted by Tocky
I did read the full article. That is a lot of what confuses me. What person who is in the act of resisting someone gives them a blowjob? In my day we left the house and went home. Is a blowjob like a handshake now?
I blame
Clerks.
Tocky on 16/1/2018 at 17:19
I'm really glad this woman said this because it's exactly how I feel. A lot of the comments by women I don't know how to relate to. I try to understand them but it's like trying to understand a creature from another planet rather than a fellow human who is of another gender. I think some of the women must be psychologically scarred enough to be seeing the Aziz thing through that lens.
Believe it or not I'm kind of girly about sex. I like the wooing and petting as much as the act and I've been pushed beyond where I really wanted to go (or at least faster than I wanted) in clumsy ways so when it came down to the act, although I performed, I could not reach the summit lets say. I could have said no so I can't blame the girl is how I feel about that. I have said no. I recall recounting a rebuff of a drunk girl on this forum and someone saying that did not compute. It does to me. I need to know it's not just the act but ME. So I kind of understand Grace.
What I don't understand is the attempted character assassination by the Babe article. Was Aziz a dick? Yes if we take her word as gospel and she was attempting non verbal cues while undressed and accepting the giving and taking of oral sex which blows my mind to even say in a sentence like that. Should that mean they take a private encounter and blast his name across all creation? Wouldn't giving him the same consideration as her have been the thing to do? He did not rape her. He missed cues likely due his huge ego. Is that assault as they claim? Can it be when she is naked and giving him oral and kissing him but then decides she doesn't want penetration and he accepts that and doesn't force anything? Or am I wrong for feeling so Twilight Zone?
I don't feel that when I was backing up and being pursued that just because I relented I was assaulted so it's hard for me to get my head around that. I recall leaving the girls key in my bin at the base hospital for her to pick up after that night because I was going sightseeing the next day and the bitter note she left me after she picked it up. I couldn't help that I wasn't as into her but if she wanted that then she should not have been so forceful. I still felt guilty. But sex is often messy like that. Emotions more so.
Starker on 16/1/2018 at 18:20
Life is messy too. Maybe she was foolish to give him so many chances and to expect better of him. People do not always do smart things, even if they are already in their twenties. And maybe it was naive of her to expect a pleasurable sexual encounter. That doesn't mean what he did was okay or normal, if things went according to the story. Yes, he stopped short of rape and he apologised afterwards, but that's not really a high bar, is it? Maybe he missed the cues, maybe he didn't, but he sure didn't stop to check whether she was okay with any of it. Though, you'd think that if you have to chase a girl all over your apartment, that would be a clue in and of itself.
Tocky on 16/1/2018 at 20:03
True. I've never subscribed to the Shades of Grey or Fountainhead thing. Some do though. Sweet dreams are made of these. Best to back off at the least sign of resistance. I always have. Also best to back off at the least sign of crazy. And not just back off but run. He came to sit on the couch and she came to sit at his feet after all the running- still naked. She wanted him to play with her hair but gave him a BJ instead. Maybe neither of them were normal. No. Not maybe. If this is the new normal then count me out.
SubJeff on 16/1/2018 at 20:04
Quote Posted by Starker
Yes, he stopped short of rape and
He stopped short of what now? Since when was this on the cards? What sort of conclusion jumping nonsense is this.
Quote:
he sure didn't stop to check whether she was okay with any of it.
I've given you the benefit of the doubt up until now, but you either haven't read the account of what happened, are ignoring it on purpose or are too dim to understand the words.
Whichever it is, you've demonstrated an inability to properly engage and discuss throughout this thread. Your opinion is null.
Starker on 16/1/2018 at 20:22
Quote Posted by Tocky
He came to sit on the couch and she came to sit at his feet after all the running- still naked. She wanted him to play with her hair but gave him a BJ instead. Maybe neither of them were normal. No. Not maybe. If this is the new normal then count me out.
She gave him yet another chance. It's not that she particularly wanted him to play with her hair, she just wanted him to be normal, act normal, slow down and back off with the "claw" thing and the oral sex thing. And of course she didn't want to sit next to him. It seems to me like she very much wanted this to work out, but he blew every chance she gave him and, to quote your president, moved on her like a bitch.
nickie on 16/1/2018 at 21:06
Quote Posted by Tocky
A lot of it is in the eyes. A LOT.
I'm catching up a bit so although your post was a while ago, I just wanted to say I agree. I always thought the eyes said almost everything you needed to know. But you know what, since the fashion for hugely shiny white teeth came in, I find myself staring at teeth and forgetting about the eyes, not that I'm on the pull these days. 20 odd years ago it was called sharking - at least in my neck of the woods.
Renzatic on 16/1/2018 at 21:34
Quote Posted by Tocky
Maybe neither of them were normal. No. Not maybe. If this is the new normal then count me out.
I think it's more a level of normal you're not quite used to seeing. I personally believe people have always been this crazy and/or stupid. The only difference is that, with the advent of the internet, it's now widely advertised, directly exposing all of us to it in its purest, most unfiltered form.
For example, we all have that one crazy uncle who believes every conspiracy theory under the sun. Back in the 80's and early 90's, his only outlet to other people who shared similar views would've been in the classified/letters to the editor section of magazines like Soldiers of Fortune and the like. If you didn't read those magazines, you were entirely unaware of this small but thriving world of paranoids and gun nuts.
These days, your uncle and his hundreds of thousands of friends are posting on Facebook for everyone to see. You're exposed to it at a level you weren't previously, and come to the conclusion that this is some nutty new thing that's driven otherwise normal people to weird extremes. Strange times and all that.
But in reality, they aren't much stranger than they have been. These people have always been there. They're just louder now.
Tocky on 16/1/2018 at 22:32
After rethinking it I feel I was wrong about it not being normal. He just wanted sex and she just wanted a famous boyfriend. Those things were at cross purposes without true feeling on either side. I'm not sure either purpose is particularly honorable but I guess they are very normal. I don't think either of them would understand my confusion in oral sex being sex either.
Yeah. Sex or no that look in the eyes is what really makes a moment. Not to be too mawkish but it's what makes moments that last a lifetime.
Edit: LOL I'm telling folks what is normal!
Scots Taffer on 16/1/2018 at 23:47
Quote Posted by Starker
Aren't you on the other hand turning the tea video into something it's not? It was never meant to be a comprehensive guide into consent and everything relating to it.
...
The point of the tea video was never that you should explicitly ask someone before every sexual interaction. And I don't think anyone here has suggested it either, so I'm not sure where you're even getting this from.
You replied with the video when I said consent is a tricky topic. Your reply suggested there is no trickiness and that it's all very simple and straightforward. That could be read as saying that I'm trying to manufacture grey areas or ambiguity where none exist. I disagree. I think consent is very fluid and ambiguous, based on both my personal experiences and observations in public and personal life.
Why I keep reiterating the point that consent is tricky is ably demonstrated by the below quote from Vas:
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Imo if you
have any doubts what the other wants or doesn't want,
you should ask.
That would be the human way to do it. If it's already hot tongue kissing and panting and ripping off clothes, I'm pretty sure it's okay to proceed without asking. And even then, if the other one says "No" (however unlikely), you should stop.
See how many contingent statements there are in there?
"If you have doubts" "If it's already hot tongue kissing and ripping off clothes" "Even then, if the other one says "No""So there are a heap of ifs or buts in there to manage consent all the way through a sexual interaction -
which is entirely my point. People (both men and women) need to take responsibility for communicating their boundaries, their actions and feelings. To put all the onus of seeking enthusiastic consent on the male is hardly representative of an equal and balanced sexual society. It's continuing to put the male as the sexual aggressor and the female as the sexual gatekeeper.
If you then throw in the heat of the moment, and alcohol and mixed messages and you have a
really complex set of variables to manage. Allow that to then be filtered through post-hoc rationalisation and judgement/guilt/shame then the situation becomes even more difficult. Memory is unreliable at the best of times, we know this from many academic studies - it is even more unreliable when the emotional state of a person is filtering those events.
I think the article you quoted is a very interesting one and paints an ugly picture of men in sexual relationships (which I contend is a very accurate depiction, both from being a man and hearing about many female friend's experiences), but it also puts women in a victim corner from which they have no agency - which I think is part of the problem here as I alluded to in my first post. Women do have agency. Women do have the ability to end an unpleasant experience.
To take a polarised viewpoint, if we are saying women have no agency in a situation like the one with Aziz, are we to accept the idea that every woman who has had a regrettable sexual encounter did so because if she said no then she would have been raped or murdered?
If the answer to that particular strawman is no, then what is actually the reason?
If it is a power imbalance (not in the professional Weinstein context but a perceived power imbalance of "I'm a woman and I should do this or that because he wants it") then
women need to have the conversation and define their own sexual identity. Not saying this is easy, of course, because we live in a society where people (including those in this thread) judge their behaviour if the fuck or blow someone on the first date? Take my example from a few pages back of the chick at the festival with her tits out. What's right and what's wrong?
There are many different camps on the issue of female sexual progressiveness and of course, all of that is irrelevant in the context of criminal acts - like rape or sexual assault - which is what started the #metoo movement. So start a different movement. Keep the conversation going. But the way this is going threatens to undermine the legitimacy of the inciting incidents and make it a case of "girl who cried Weinstein". Even Mira Sorvino has recently come out and said that she doesn't want the #metoo movement being hijacked to be about equal pay or equal opportunity in the industry. Everyone has a view of what this movement is or isn't. Perhaps we should let the victims of Weinstein determine that first and then start other social movements to complement rather than hijacking where it's not appropriate.
Edit That other article Kolya linked was great. In particular:
Quote:
I am a proud feminist, and this is what I thought while reading Grace's story:
If you are hanging out naked with a man, it's safe to assume he is going to try to have sex with you.
If the inability to choose a pinot noir over a pinot grigio offends you, you can leave right then and there.
If you don't like the way your date hustles through paying the check, you can say, “I've had a lovely evening and I'm going home now.”
If you go home with him and discover he's a terrible kisser, say “I'm out.”
If you start to hook up and don't like the way he smells or the way he talks (or doesn't talk), end it.
If he pressures you to do something you don't want to do, use a four-letter word, stand up on your two legs and walk out his door.
A-fucking-men.