Starker on 15/1/2018 at 20:42
Quote Posted by Kolya
Imagine the same scenario, but instead of groping and kissing you, the guy slaps you in the face. You have the exact same problem now.
And you have every right to tell people about it, as far as I'm concerned. At least you can warn people of the guy, if nothing else. And if more people come forward and say that yeah, actually the guy did slap them too, that's pretty good evidence right there.
Kolya on 15/1/2018 at 21:21
Quote:
If the legal system is bypassed because it is seen as ineffectual, what will take its place? Who will be the new power brokers? It won't be the Bad Feminists like me. We are acceptable neither to Right nor to Left. In times of extremes, extremists win. Their ideology becomes a religion, anyone who doesn't puppet their views is seen as an apostate, a heretic or a traitor, and moderates in the middle are annihilated. Fiction writers are particularly suspect because they write about human beings, and people are morally ambiguous. The aim of ideology is to eliminate ambiguity.
Margaret Atwood
(
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/article37591823/)
Starker on 15/1/2018 at 21:28
Funny how it always seems to be women's role to take responsibility in a situation like this.
Not really surprised that a feminist movement like #metoo would have an anti-feminist backlash, though.
Kolya on 15/1/2018 at 21:37
@Starker By this point I am convinced that your continued obtuseness is a false pretense, similar to how T_T pretends to care about justice and free speech. But it's a tool to him, because he knows these are things we care about.
In the same way you pretend to care about justice in this issue. But actually you have long decided what that should be and you don't care about any argument that would disprove your idea. And I don't have time for that.
Renzatic on 15/1/2018 at 22:31
I'm just now hearing about the Aziz situation. I think I agree with Scot's link's take on the matter. What he did was probably all kinds of creepy, uncouth, and all around awkward, but I wouldn't quite classify it as sexual harassment worthy of destroying a career over. It was a situation that could've been (and likely was) solved with a quick backhand upside the head, a "what the fuck is wrong with you", and a swift walk out the front door. He should know better, and she isn't required to put up with it.
Negative reinforcement is an effective tool in shaping behavior, and should be applied more regularly. That said, not all negative reinforcement has to involve public shamings and ruined lives. There's a time and a place for that, certainly, but it should be reserved for the most heinous of people committing the most heinous of acts, not the default for every single date night that goes awkward. We're ignoring the gradient for the thrill of enforcing the extremes.
Renault on 15/1/2018 at 22:43
I'd advise anyone formulating an opinion on the Aziz situation to read the entire article from Babe, not just the quotes in all the various articles. It comes down to who you believe, and did all of that stuff really happen, but if it did, the guy is pretty much in the wrong. She brought some of it on herself, but he really pushed things way too far.
Starker on 15/1/2018 at 23:03
Kolya, I have been very clear where I stand on this issue right from the start. I believe that victims have the right to speak out against their abusers. If nothing else, it's free speech. And I believe victims should be taken seriously. And I believe people are allowed to form their own opinions on a matter with or without a court verdict. I have neither advocated for vigilantism nor for jailing people without proof. And I haven't really seen any serious arguments why I shouldn't believe in the above.
Also, do you think I'm not disappointed in you? Ever since from the Neogaf thread, you have done everything to downplay the seriousness of this issue. Your very first comment cast it as a witch hunt and McCarthyism and bemoaned the plight of white men in power. And it didn't get any better from there. In the other thread (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148360&p=2376487&viewfull=1#post2376487) you even went as far as to downplay an assault on a minor. You have been extremely biased about this from the start.
Renzatic on 15/1/2018 at 23:08
Just got through reading it. I'd say I believe her. The story has that ring of truth to it. Even if she did stick around longer than she should've in hopes of salvaging the night, that doesn't do a thing to excuse his behavior. He should've taken the not-so-subtle clues, and backed the hell off. His "I'm sorry you feel that way, I saw things differently" non-apology makes him look like an even bigger asshole after the fact.
He was walking down that road to engaging in a textbook example of date rape. The fact he didn't go all the way with it is his only sliver of a saving grace here.
Now I'm conflicted.
Starker on 15/1/2018 at 23:11
It's easy to say what she should have done in hindsight. But not all women are taught to assert themselves or to be aggressive. Generally, it's the opposite, actually. And there is the age disparity to consider. You don't learn to handle situations like these until you've had the chance to experience some.
