Kolya on 13/1/2018 at 22:13
Kekekekeke. ;)
Tocky on 13/1/2018 at 22:36
Quote Posted by Renzatic
I BLEED FOR YOOOOUUUU! :mad:
You told me I was the first! You whore!
Renzatic on 14/1/2018 at 01:30
I LIED! OLOL! \:mad:/
Scots Taffer on 15/1/2018 at 12:02
(
https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/aziz-ansari-reactions-consent/) Case in point as to why a simplistic binary view of consent doesn't actually progress the conversation we need to have
Lest my linking be taken the wrong way a few clarifying points:
1. I always felt Aziz's “nice guy trying to date” routine reeked of sexual entitlement so this post is (sadly) not surprising.
2. The fact that so many are arcing up about how commonplace this type of coercive sexual behaviour is shows that the conversation about consent is not sufficiently progressed and mature between the sexes
3. Guys have a lot to answer for in terms of being the sexual aggressor but let us not forget that western culture has promoted women as being the sexual gatekeeper, primarily due to their risk of unwanted pregnancy - but that is only a slim part of the reason we are only reconciling this discussion now... a huge part of it is to do with male entitlement in a society where men are (largely) the power brokers... and hence we loop back to the Weinstein example again.
Starker on 15/1/2018 at 12:59
Um... it seems pretty clear-cut to me. He kept aggressively pressuring her into things and, from the looks of it, she gave him plenty of signs to stop. If a girl pulls away from you and tells you to slow down, it isn't an invitation to double your efforts.
This is even addressed in the Tea and Consent video:
Quote:
If you say, "Hey, would you like a cup of tea?" and they're like, "Umm... I'm not really sure..." then you can make them a cup of tea or not, but be aware that they might not drink it, and if they don't drink it then - this is the important bit - don't make them drink it.
Like I said, if you're really bad at interpreting body language, you can always just ask. Don't just assume you have permission to do anything, especially on a first date.
Although, yes, consent is a bit more complicated than "she didn't explicitly say no or scream, therefore she consented".
Scots Taffer on 15/1/2018 at 14:00
My point is that you are continuing to preach to the converted. I think Aziz's actions clearly cross the line but many, many people do not. There is significant public debate in every comments thread online about this being merely a “regrettable sexual experience” or “buyers remorse” - many of the people espousing this view are female. This is why I think consent is a complex issue. Personal boundaries, individuality and agency are complex issues. There is a multiplicity of views on a broad spectrum of behaviours at play here and I continue to watch and wait for the next accusation and the reaction to it.
icemann on 15/1/2018 at 14:59
Have to say that I'm not happy about the James Franco stuff of late. I think this whole thing is being taken a bit too far. That said it doesn't seem to have affected his career for now (largely due to the Disaster Artist doing so well). And I question where the need to announce about it (by the media) was to the public. Whether he turns out to be innocent later on or not, it matters not now as the public will have made their minds up one way or the other.
I think Franco has taken the best course of action by taking a silence is golden approach, considering how frenzied it's all becoming. Not towards him specifically, but in this whole purge that's going on.
heywood on 15/1/2018 at 16:32
Quote Posted by SubJeff
If you can't prove it maybe you should shut up, lest you spout nonsense. If you're not prepared to take it to court do you think it's really fair to accuse people on social media? The best they can do is ignore it, the worst is call you out and then have your hoards of idiot fans rally against them.
Suppose I'm at a government office trying to get a permit for something or a business deal done and a guy steps up and grabs me by the crotch, gives me a quick kiss, and says he can do me some favors and hook me up if I'm interested. How am I supposed to prove that happened? Do you want me to go down to the police station and demand they take a cut out of the crotch of my pants and obtain a DNA sample? They'll laugh me out of the building. Now if I have a witness to corroborate my story, maybe they will take me seriously, but still the chances of prosecution are very near zero.
This isn't really a hypothetical, because just down the road from me in Boston we have the husband of the State Senate President accused of doing this to multiple men: groping them, kissing them, or texting them porn, and offering to trade sex for political favors.
Your insistence that victims should either prove it in court or shut up is absurd, because it means that all a perpetrator has to do is get the victim into a situation where there are no likely witnesses around, and then he can get away with whatever he wants. And even if there are witnesses around, if the perpetrator has some control or influence over them he still gets away with it.
The criminal justice system is just not capable of dealing out justice for sexual harassment or even most cases of sexual assault.
Quote:
This is one of the big problems - innocent people cannot win.
This whole #metoo thing got started because there droves of innocent people out there who got harassed, abused, had to leave their jobs, got blacklisted, etc. and couldn't do anything about it. Too bad you only care about one class of innocent person.
Kolya on 15/1/2018 at 17:56
Imagine the same scenario, but instead of groping and kissing you, the guy slaps you in the face. You have the exact same problem now.
Quote Posted by heywood
The criminal justice system is just not capable of dealing out justice for sexual harassment or even most cases of sexual assault.
As I just demonstrated this is not exclusive to sexual harassment, but happens whenever word stands against word and evidence is hard to come by.
Frankly, I think it's you who has a problem with the justice system. Which would be fine, if you had a better idea, but your only suggestion so far has been to pillory suspects, which most of us have kind of stepped away from a few hundred years ago for rather obvious reasons that you choose to ignore now.
icemann on 15/1/2018 at 18:29
Quote Posted by heywood
Suppose I'm at a government office trying to get a permit for something or a business deal done and a guy steps up and grabs me by the crotch, gives me a quick kiss, and says he can do me some favors and hook me up if I'm interested. How am I supposed to prove that happened? Do you want me to go down to the police station and demand they take a cut out of the crotch of my pants and obtain a DNA sample? They'll laugh me out of the building. Now if I have a witness to corroborate my story, maybe they will take me seriously, but still the chances of prosecution are very near zero.
The catch 22 to that, is how does the accused prove that he/she did
not do it if accused wrongly?
Answer: They can't. So people will just make their own minds up, whether the person was innocent or not.
