Renzatic on 11/1/2018 at 18:21
I heard that Italians and the French just walk up to you and lick you on the face as a formal greeting.
Starker on 11/1/2018 at 18:38
We once had a Russian guy with us who had heard that the French greet with cheek kisses. We met with a French woman and he gave her a big sloppy kiss on the cheek. She looked horrified while everyone around burst out laughing.
Oh and there was one more funny incident with the same woman when she greeted another woman, don't remember right now whether she was Portuguese or Spanish (I speak neither). Apparently, they start with a different cheek than the French, so they almost locked lips when they greeted each other the first time. Also, I heard awkward moments can occur when you have different number of kisses in different parts of France.
SubJeff on 11/1/2018 at 21:05
Quote Posted by Vasquez
It's a nasty side effect of a good thing –
Yes, and that's all she's saying as far as I can see.
It's become a bit of a minefield for many. Dia can say everyone can tell if someone else fancies all she likes. It's simply not true. If you've not experienced it yourself you've seen it with other people you know (unless you've lived in a cave) - plenty of people fancy people without being fully sure that the feeling is reciprocate.
heywood on 11/1/2018 at 22:25
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Yes..? I still see yet another version of "but now men can't flirt with women anymore!" -whine.
Same here.
The #metoo movement is NOT a reaction to unintentional breaches of etiquette by socially awkward males who don't know how to approach a woman romantically. It's a reaction to celebrities, politicians, executives, managers, and other people who deliberately use their power & status to coerce women (and some men) into non-consensual sexual encounters of various types.
Kolya on 11/1/2018 at 23:16
Quote:
The fact that such unwelcome advances persist, and often in the office, is, yes, evidence of sexism and the abusive power of the patriarchy. But I don’t believe that scattershot, life-destroying denunciations are the way to upend it. In our current climate, to be accused is to be convicted. Due process is nowhere to be found.
And what exactly are men being accused of? What is the difference between harassment and assault and “inappropriate conduct”? There is a disturbing lack of clarity about the terms being thrown around and a lack of distinction regarding what the spectrum of objectionable behavior really is.
(
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/opinion/golden-globes-metoo.html) Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings. by Daphne Merkin (NYT)
Vasquez on 12/1/2018 at 02:08
Quote Posted by SubJeff
plenty of people fancy people without being fully sure that the feeling is reciprocate.
But surely the solution can't be to just start feeling them up and see what happens? And if they're not interested, there's still the little word "no" that shouldn't be too hard to understand even if you're a bit socially clumsy.
Tocky on 12/1/2018 at 05:38
Look, folks with aspergers have got to understand that those of us who do not are going cross eyed over this latest thread turn. We just don't expect you. Harvester is a nice guy and he explained in a decent way how he deals with it. I wish for his sake I could teach him how to flirt and understand the return signals but I've never really dissected it. Honestly I miss the signals a lot myself. But when I do it's not in the direction of my overstepping but my understepping and that is the way to do it if you have doubt. That is why it's important to talk to them. Do it a lot if you have doubt. They flirt too you know. If you feel you are ugly you will miss those, I have myself, but certainly don't plow ahead if you haven't gotten even a vague flirt.
It truly is not rocket science. If you lean in for a kiss and they lean away that is obviously not the time to press forward. That would be the time to say thank you for a lovely evening and not call them again. Just always figure that if it isn't obvious then it just isn't period. Wait for the lean in by THEM when you lean. Not happening? ABORT.
A lot of it is in the eyes. A LOT. Are they looking at you even or even especially when you are not looking at them? Emotion comes right out of the eyes and that is why it is a good thing to look into them. I guess shy folks with aspergers don't look in the eyes? If you "fancy" someone then for heavens sake don't force anything. Talk to them. See if they smile at you a lot. Step toward them if signals are a go. If they step back then you do so as well. Don't push. How hard is that? For that matter how hard is it to figure what Dia meant? Really hard for some. If you couldn't figure out that then pay close attention to the other stuff I said here.
Some here may not be very aware but I can't help but feel some are purposely obtuse. Lord help the girls who go out with those.
I just realized I've never been told no. They never had to. At the least resistance I backed off. You do the same. Also I realize I've never actually gotten much if any resistance so that means the devil honored his agreement after all and I'm going to hell. Just kidding. I am the devil.
Starker on 12/1/2018 at 06:40
This is a terrible article. Just because Ms Merkin and her friends are rolling their eyes behind the scenes doesn't mean that this isn't a real problem. She casts the women who have spoken up as weak and pathetic and insidious, and she questions the seriousness of some of the incidents, but #metoo isn't just about any one single incident, it highlights what women as a whole have had to deal with.
A woman being groped at work may not seem serious to her, but she doesn't understand that it's the power dynamic that's important here. Rejecting unwanted advances is not as easy as she makes it sound. Not all woman are in a position to "take the risk that comes with it" and, more crucially, they shouldn't have to. Not to mention that predators often prey on the vulnerable. And of course she attempts to muddy the waters with "What even is harassment?" and "Now we can't even flirt anymore!"
And, for extra bonus, she throws in some straw feminism and thinly veiled suggestions that this is a witch hunt. Except... there are no witches, but there are real predators. If anything, the #metoo movement should be called a predator hunt. That's the aspect that the critics of the movement have been focused on anyway. But the real crux of the movement has been that women are speaking out about their abuse and doing so in numbers for solidarity. And that has led to some celebrities come under fire.
Kolya on 12/1/2018 at 08:07
Either you read a different article or you are trying really hard to misunderstand every point in it.
Harvester on 12/1/2018 at 09:15
Quote Posted by Tocky
Look, folks with aspergers have got to understand that those of us who do not are going cross eyed over this latest thread turn. We just don't expect you. Harvester is a nice guy and he explained in a decent way how he deals with it. I wish for his sake I could teach him how to flirt and understand the return signals but I've never really dissected it. Honestly I miss the signals a lot myself. But when I do it's not in the direction of my overstepping but my understepping and that is the way to do it if you have doubt. That is why it's important to talk to them. Do it a lot if you have doubt. They flirt too you know. If you feel you are ugly you will miss those, I have myself, but certainly don't plow ahead if you haven't gotten even a vague flirt.
It truly is not rocket science. If you lean in for a kiss and they lean away that is obviously not the time to press forward. That would be the time to say thank you for a lovely evening and not call them again. Just always figure that if it isn't obvious then it just isn't period. Wait for the lean in by THEM when you lean. Not happening? ABORT.
A lot of it is in the eyes. A LOT. Are they looking at you even or even especially when you are not looking at them? Emotion comes right out of the eyes and that is why it is a good thing to look into them. I guess shy folks with aspergers don't look in the eyes? If you "fancy" someone then for heavens sake don't force anything. Talk to them. See if they smile at you a lot. Step toward them if signals are a go. If they step back then you do so as well. Don't push. How hard is that? For that matter how hard is it to figure what Dia meant? Really hard for some. If you couldn't figure out that then pay close attention to the other stuff I said here.
Some here may not be very aware but I can't help but feel some are purposely obtuse. Lord help the girls who go out with those.
I just realized I've never been told no. They never had to. At the least resistance I backed off. You do the same. Also I realize I've never actually gotten much if any resistance so that means the devil honored his agreement after all and I'm going to hell. Just kidding. I am the devil.
Thanks, I agree with you to be careful and not make a move unless there are clear signals.
For the record, I wasn't actually disagreeing with Dia and I certainly don't want to muddy the waters in the discussion. It's just that Tony mentioned Asperger's and I wanted to give an example of how I deal with this stuff, being a person who is less adept at reading signals. I think my approach of not making physical advances without there being signals is a wise approach for anyone to take, Asperger's or not. Most people will have an easier time to get a feeling for whether physical contact would be appreciated than I do. But if you can't tell, stay clear, and that goes for both people with Asperger's and without. That was the point of my previous post, it wasn't intended to single myself out and prove Dia wrong or anything like that.
I actually do have my own slightly clumsy way of flirting, but it's mostly verbal and is something for the long run instead of making a big impression during a single meeting. I could go into detail, but I don't think the thread should be about how different people flirt or about how people with Asperger's deal with initiating physical contact. That would be muddying the waters in a discussion about the bigger #metoo issue, so I'm going to leave it at this and not give anymore personal anecdotes.
Dia, I'm sorry if I came across as contrarian and purposefully obtuse, that was not my intention. We're actually largely on the same page on this issue.
