Starker on 11/1/2018 at 03:14
Also, consent is not all that complicated, really:
[video=youtube;oQbei5JGiT8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8[/video]
icemann on 11/1/2018 at 03:43
I'll note that this is exactly the sort of debate that me and Kolya were trying to generate in the original incarnation of this thread/topic. Good to see it taken in the direction it deserved :). This thread has made for some excellent reading over the past few weeks.
And after reading Scotts post above I think we're all headed down the road of the movie "Equilibrium", with humanity taking emotion suppressing medication so that we're effectively robots. Maybe I'm taking it a step too far, but it's a hard line to draw when it comes to approaching a potential sexual partner. One person's line may not exist with another. So it's all a very murky grey area. Are we headed down a path where we only date people via internet dating sites? God I hope not. That just takes the fun out of life.
Otherwise we're headed down a path of:
Inline Image:
https://media.giphy.com/media/njYrp176NQsHS/giphy.gifWhen you go to approach that hot girl at work. Man, life would be so boring if things ever got that way.
Scots Taffer on 11/1/2018 at 06:32
Quote Posted by Starker
Also, consent is not all that complicated, really:
[video=youtube;oQbei5JGiT8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8[/video]
I've seen this video. I like this video. I think it's a good video.
But tea is not sex.
edit: icemann, this is somewhat directed at your reply because I smell a touch of hyperbole and exaggeration from where I was trying to go... and to attempt to qualify my loose collection of points further, I want to be really clear that I am not in favour of providing ANY smokescreen whatsoever for the Weinsteins or Woody Allens of the world, or anyone who has perpetrated consistently unacceptable and unwelcome behaviour towards another human being for that matter. If you're a dick, be a dick. But don't pretend you aren't. Be accountable for being a dick - shit... you can probably get away with it a lot of the time...
However, when I hear "shit a guy can't go up and hit on a hot woman anymore". FUCK THAT NOISE. Nothing is preventing that except you being a pussy. What you hopefully won't be able to do as much in the future is be a raging cock of a human being or exploit a position of power and not be called on it. Society genuinely has said #timesup on that. People, men in particular, just need to be able to take a look in the mirror and be a lot more fucking honest with themselves than they have been in the past.
Kolya on 11/1/2018 at 08:03
I'm getting some mixed signals here...
*touching Scots thigh*
Seriously, maybe it's not women who are trying to take away men's rights to hit on them, but a way too long story of guys abusing that freedom and willfully misinterpreting signals.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
I would argue that we are experiencing the
real sexual revolution today. Where men and women can fuck people with abandon and not be judged for it
I'm not convinced of that. Do girls/women really take the first step today regularly?
(I wouldn't know!)
But if they don't, if the expectation still largely lies on the males to make a move, then I can see why threats of being publicly labelled a harrasser would make that harder. Especially if you're used to rejection anyway and the shame of one pub night is being made into your life's shame of being inadequate.
But even if females do make the first move the same would be true for many of them.
A militarized flirt zone is a nonexistent one.
icemann on 11/1/2018 at 08:08
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
I've seen this video. I like this video. I think it's a good video.
But tea is not sex.
edit: icemann, this is somewhat directed at your reply because I smell a touch of hyperbole and exaggeration from where I was trying to go... and to attempt to qualify my loose collection of points further, I want to be really clear that I am not in favour of providing ANY smokescreen whatsoever for the Weinsteins or Woody Allens of the world, or anyone who has perpetrated consistently unacceptable and unwelcome behaviour towards another human being for that matter. If you're a dick, be a dick. But don't pretend you aren't. Be accountable for being a dick - shit... you can probably get away with it a lot of the time...
However, when I hear "shit a guy can't go up and hit on a hot woman anymore". FUCK THAT NOISE. Nothing is preventing that except you being a pussy. What you hopefully won't be able to do as much in the future is be a raging cock of a human being or exploit a position of power and not be called on it. Society genuinely has said #timesup on that. People, men in particular, just need to be able to take a look in the mirror and be a lot more fucking honest with themselves than they have been in the past.
I never said that a guy can't go hit on a hot woman anymore, I said that things might go in that direction.
"Might" is not "will" and was a theorizing of where things may go.
Starker on 11/1/2018 at 09:14
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
I've seen this video. I like this video. I think it's a good video.
But tea is not sex.
Well, that's why it's an analogy. I think it gets the idea across pretty well. It's not really much more complicated than "don't do things against your partner's will". If you really do want to put your finger up someone's bum, there are ways of approaching this without straight up ramming it in, you know. Even if you are autistic or just really bad at interpreting body language, just can always just ask beforehand. And if you do decide to spontaneously do it and they don't like it and ask you to stop, you stop. It's really that easy.
This very murky grey area is not murky at all if you take into consideration what your partner wants and vice versa, which should be every adult relationship.
Vasquez on 11/1/2018 at 09:17
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Have a nice glass of wine and read it again.
Yes..? I still see yet another version of "but now men can't flirt with women anymore!" -whine. It's inevitable that a mass movement like this also brings out the irrationally vindictive crazies, and as far as I can see no one in this thread has said that's a good thing. It is not. It's a nasty side effect of a good thing – assuming this is the turning point to a profound cultural change, where women are not seen as objects for men to play with at whim.
Also it's simply stupid to scream rape if someone asks you out for dinner. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees? Yes, there's the interpretation of situations that makes things difficult to judge from outside, but if someone screams rape after an date offer, I hope there are sane people around her/him to say hey, you're overreacting a bit now. But we all hope that no one says things like that to someone who has actually been harrassed or raped.
The tea comparison does have a point. Tea isn't sex, but the word "no" still has the same meaning whether you talk about sex or tea. Personally, I recently met "insistent flirting" that Deneuve sees as completely harmless. After my second, in no way misinterpretable "No thank you" came a third invite to a weekend trip together, and that did start feel like harrassing. Call me a mimosa or whatever, but it was really, really unpleasant. Obviously my reaction was made worse by other rough shit I'm going throug and recent GAD diagnosis, but I refuse to take blame for how I felt about it.
Fortunately he's a good-natured chap and someone I know rather well, so I was able to tell him very strictly to leave me the hell alone. But if it had been some big, strong guy I barely know (ie. how he reacts to rejection), I would've been scared he appears at my doorstep one day or something else totally creepy. But I see that kind of insistent behaviour as a result of how women have been seen as collective property of men, therefore men have right to coerce women into doing what men want, either by force or by perseverance. You know the saying "A woman's maybe is yes, and her no is a maybe", that about sums it up. No should always be a no.
It almost seems like we're mostly all agreeing, we just look at the matter from such different povs that it seems like we're disagreeing.
Scots Taffer on 11/1/2018 at 09:26
The tea video is a good example of how not to rape, not about the subtleties of consent that I mentioned in my post. Asking someone to have sex ISN'T the same as asking someone for tea. Forcing tea into someone unconscious is a flippant but effective critique of drunken consent aka rape.
Vasquez on 11/1/2018 at 12:07
In my bubble - and I realise I'm a bit pampered here - "stealing a kiss" is not subtle, it's considered incredibly bad form that people usually do (and later regret in shame) only if they accidentally had a bit too much to drink.
What happened to talking to the person you're interested in? Of course if your verbal approach is "yo bitch I wanna fuck you up the ass", that's probably not taken as flattery, but if you like someone and want to get to know them better, how about talking to them? If they seem happy to talk to you, then ask them for a date, and if they say "no", accept that? Why should touching and kissing be the first sign of interest?
(Edit. Not making an argument to the main topic here, just kinda rambling because I honestly can't understand how it seems so super hard for so many people to find a way to approach their love/sex interest pleasantly? There are even tips for that: "Think how you would like your mother/sister/brother be treated?" It's not rocket science really.)
Dia on 11/1/2018 at 13:44
Well said, Vas; you nailed it: 'What happened to talking to the person you're interested in? Of course if your verbal approach is "yo bitch I wanna fuck you up the ass", that's probably not taken as flattery, but if you like someone and want to get to know them better, how about talking to them? If they seem happy to talk to you, then ask them for a date, and if they say "no", accept that? Why should touching and kissing be the first sign of interest?'
Anyone with half a brain should be able to determine whether or not the person they're trying to hit on seems interested in them. It's not fucking rocket science. Bottom line: don't be a dick (see Vas' post above). That said, I'm totally sick and tired of all the over-analyzing, dissecting, what-aboutism, and what-ifs going on in this thread. Sorry to hear about your GAD, Vas; I seem to be suffering from anger issues lately.
Outta here.
