Guilty Until Proven Innocent

ffox on 31/12/2017 at 11:38

A single sexual harassment report started an avalanche. A similar thing now seems to be occurring regarding men being maliciously accused of rape in the UK and subsequently convicted. The 3rd case in a short time just been reported. The poor chap had been in prison for four years! To quote (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-conviction-overturn-evidence-disclosure-facebook-messages-danny-kay-failure-met-police-a8124241.html) The Independent :

Quote:

Lord Justice Simon, Mr Justice Goss and Judge Walden-Smith said defence lawyers later found the archive of 29 Facebook messages that had been “selectively” deleted by the complainant. They said the messages contradicted the prosecution’s case and supported Mr Kay’s claim their relations were consensual.

The conviction has been overturned. What compensation could possibly make up for time in prison? The lying complainant probably won't be prosecuted because that would deter genuine victims from reporting rape and other sexual offences. What is the answer?

nickie on 31/12/2017 at 15:12

But the accuser would normally be prosecuted for perjury at the least, I would have thought. Wasting police time isn't very popular either. People making false accusations are regularly prosecuted, aren't they?

driver on 31/12/2017 at 16:23

There was a case a few years back when a woman was prosecuted for false rape allegations (though it had to be brought privately). She killed herself before it went to trial, so now the courts are even more reluctant to prosecute false claims.

(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/28/prosecuting-eleanor-de-freitas-alleged-false-reports-rape)

It's a tricky situation, and a good argument for anonymity for defendants in cases related to rape and sexual abuse.

Kolya on 31/12/2017 at 16:42

Of course that argument goes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/29/mother-of-son-who-hanged-himself--after-being-accused-of/) either way.

ffox on 31/12/2017 at 17:09

@nickie: It's hard to sort out what percentage get prosecuted. In the UK about 3% of accusations are deemed to be malicious according to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape) Wikipedia.

Over a 17-month period there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape. 12% of the rape allegations were false accusations. There were 35 prosecutions for making a false allegation. (There is no report of the results of the prosecutions.)

12% of 5651 is 678, so 643 false allegations weren't prosecuted. That's 95%! It looks as though a false accuser has got a very good chance of getting away with it.

What is also bothering is that the police weren't thorough in some of their investigations. If they had been the number of prosecutions for rape and prosecutions for false allegations would both have been different - I suspect considerably higher.

icemann on 31/12/2017 at 17:13

Quote Posted by Kolya

Of course that argument goes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/29/mother-of-son-who-hanged-himself--after-being-accused-of/) either way.

And that is why the system is completely broken. That not only destroyed the life completely of the accused who then took his own life, but also that of his mother who saw no point in living. That's just horrible :(.

Kolya on 31/12/2017 at 19:45

There will always be some people who cannot take the pressure of being investigated for a crime. Nothing we can do about it.
What we could do is not raising this pressure by prejudging anyone. Accusers or accused.

But then you get those people who feel that is their God given right. Freedom of speech! Call it what it is! My opinion! We're not in a court!

Well in my opinion they are guilty of a crime.

nickie on 31/12/2017 at 20:09

I'm afraid there was a sentence in Kolya's article that silently set me off on one of my hobby horses. Having been subjected to it, I'm very much of the opinion that people should not be living their lives through their children. To say (the brother), when she also has a daughter, that her life wasn't worth living without her son is more than a little mean on the daughter, IMO. I am aware of the 'guilt' that is involved for those who have to go through someone's suicide but that's not the point of what I'm saying. And the brother may well only be saying that as an expression of her pain. But people say it. I hear it all the time and it pisses me off. Your children are not yours to own. Which is way off topic. Apologies.

@ freddy. Sorry, I feel a ramble coming on. This is one of the reasons I'm pulled in two different directions about naming and shaming. So I'll just say I think there are two different things that we talk about in this thread. In this case, I'm not talking about #metoo and people being subjected to harassment. I do see that differently (not wrong as such). But I read an argument and agree with it and then read a different argument and agree with that. I'm completely muddled.

I can't tell now whether the changes in attitude to victims has made it easier for people to report the crime. I believe it has. Or at least that's one of the explanations given when people cite increased figures. I don't think 'false accusations' will make people less likely to report.

I was very struck by the dramatisation, 'The Lost Honour of Christopher Jeffries', which SubJeff mentioned. I think it's a prime example of why 'The Public' including 'The Media' cannot be trusted with the names of anyone accused of anything. I lived in Portsmouth when mobs marched the streets in Waterlooville after suspected whatevers. 'People' are idiots.

I think that I think that malicious accusers should at least be considered for prosecution. But we don't know what decisions the powers that be make. Probably some of those 95% will be doolally but for those who aren't then I also think it's kind of wicked to make false accusations about anything. But maybe you have to be a bit off your trolley to do that in the first place.

I am reminded of when I first started counselling victims of child sexual abuse. Pretty much the first thing I was told was that false accusers were also incredibly troubled and also needed help.

Perhaps they should try out not naming anyone, accused and accuser, until a case has been to court for anything more than a parking ticket.

Tl;dr - I haven't a clue but I'm trying to distract myself from other things.

Edit. I just remembered an occasion when I was asked to take a present for someone from London to Devon. I was accused of opening the present. Which I hadn't. They went on and on at me and it was horrible. I eventually worked out that the present opening was done by the children of the people I stayed with before I left. It was just a flipping present but they made me feel like it was the crime of the century. False accusations, however minor, can hurt.

Starker on 31/12/2017 at 20:36

The 12% figure is incredibly misleading. There are many reasons why an accusation can be classified as "false", including the accuser retracting their statement or having inconsistencies in their testimony or by withholding information (such as illegal drug use or being a sex worker) or even simply by not acting sufficiently victim-like and therefore not being believed.

Also, the statistics are further skewed by the fact that sexual assault is severely underreported.

And Kolya, I may be guilty of the "crime" of believing Weinstein is guilty, but I think a greater "crime" is when people leap to the defence of sexual predators even when there is convincing evidence for their guilt and/or they have admitted their wrongdoings.

Tocky on 31/12/2017 at 20:57

Quote Posted by Kolya

So you are guilty of your own crime then? You prejudge the judgers before they have their day in court? LOL.

Your opinion is that those expressing an opinion should not express an opinion under penalty of law.