ercles on 3/11/2011 at 22:03
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Also Scott's accusation that series is getting stale is pretty false. GTA4 overhauled/replaced gameplay mechanics in a big way over the GTA3-verse titles.
Including a cover mechanic doesn't make a huge difference when every mission is just "drive somewhere, kill everyone, chase someone down, kill them, drive home". GTAIV was a big step backwards in terms of mission variety.
demagogue on 3/11/2011 at 22:19
That is if you consider beach Dance Dance Revolution credible "variety" for a gangster.
ercles on 3/11/2011 at 22:44
Whether it's dissonant or not is another argument. At the very least I didn't find San Andreas boring, whereas I absolutely found GTAIV boring.
EvaUnit02 on 3/11/2011 at 22:51
A stronger focus on serious storytelling than ever before; nuanced world detail (internet, TV) + character interactions and behaviour (Euphoria engine); Multiplayer; semi-realistic physics (eg for driving); GPS navigation; the aforementioned cover mechanics; an overhauled aiming system; overhauled drive-by controls.
Many of the latter examples are entirely iterative, sure, but they still went a long way in improving the overall game experience over the GTA3-verse titles.
That being said, vanilla GTA4 made far too many missteps for me to rate it above Vice City or SA. Flawed game, but it still accomplished so much.
Scots Taffer on 4/11/2011 at 00:35
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Also Scott's accusation that series is getting stale is pretty false. GTA4 overhauled/replaced gameplay mechanics in a big way over the GTA3-verse titles.
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
A stronger focus on serious storytelling than ever before;
nuanced world detail (internet, TV) + character interactions and behaviour (Euphoria engine); Multiplayer; semi-realistic physics (eg for driving); GPS navigation; the aforementioned cover mechanics; an overhauled aiming system; overhauled drive-by controls.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Gameplay mechanics for GTA are getting
old and the
new stuff they've pulled out of the bag thus far (
dating, personalisation, friends, hobbies etc) ain't that fun.
Thanks for repeating me. I didn't say the entire series was stale. I specified a fair whack of the new stuff - I just don't like any of it.
Semantics abounds... maybe "gameplay
mechanics being old" isn't the best way of putting it, strip out the word "mechanics" and I reckon I'm pretty dead on though. The driving, aiming and physics getting a bit of a do-over isn't innovative, merely a refinement of what's already been around for
three games. ercles said it best, the mission formula (better term) is definitely stale and hasn't been redefined or innovated by some improvements in handling.
As for "serious storytelling", I personally didn't find Niko's story more engaging or better told than previous GTA games. In fact, I found it to have the opposite effect. The prior games were at least honest about the fact that you were the best of a bad bunch of gangsters in terms of your player character - it is a game series called Grand Theft Auto after all. A series famous for stealing cars, kerbstomping hookers and indiscriminately blasting passers by. Why do I want to play some guy who doesn't want to be bad? That's the whole fucking cornerstone of the series.
The Alchemist on 4/11/2011 at 01:14
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Thanks for repeating me. I didn't say the entire series was stale. I specified a fair whack of the new stuff - I just don't like any of it.
Semantics abounds... maybe "gameplay
mechanics being old" isn't the best way of putting it, strip out the word "mechanics" and I reckon I'm pretty dead on though. The driving, aiming and physics getting a bit of a do-over isn't innovative, merely a refinement of what's already been around for
three games. ercles said it best, the mission formula (better term) is definitely stale and hasn't been redefined or innovated by some improvements in handling.
As for "serious storytelling", I personally didn't find Niko's story more engaging or better told than previous GTA games. In fact, I found it to have the opposite effect. The prior games were at least honest about the fact that you were the best of a bad bunch of gangsters in terms of your player character - it is a game series called Grand Theft Auto after all. A series famous for stealing cars, kerbstomping hookers and indiscriminately blasting passers by. Why do I want to play some guy who doesn't want to be bad? That's the whole fucking cornerstone of the series.
I think you missed the point (and probably wont like where GTAV is going either). If we continued to hype up being a miserable cunt and just killing anyone and doing whatever you need to do, you'd end up with Saints Row. And arguably, Saints Row is truer to the original GTA than any of the newer ones. I refer to the 2d one. However, as the graphics became more realistic, so too did the situations. And frankly, it's hard to be a total badass and not get capped. You'd have to keep in mind that this, too, was heritage to the original GTA, as getting the military on your ass was a quick way to eat an explosive shell from a tank. So in order to provide you a gameworld that isnt one 40 hr long griefing exercise (albiet fun as that is), the characters had to have a moral contrast that kept you from all out losing it. How do you want intense narrative when your character has blown up half of the city? You just want to get away with that shit? I understand wanting to be specifically bad, but I think a lot like Walter White Niko slowly transforms into this more evil entity. For the sake of the narrative structure, you have to have some balance so that the gameworld doesn't fall apart. And as you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of this formula. I loved the Niko story, even if it wasnt perfect. It was evocative and fun. And the level of realism kept it from becoming too stale of a sandbox. If Minecraft has taught me anything, it's that sandbox games need electric fences and mines in order to keep it interesting. As far as being a "criminal" in the narrative sense, it seems as though this one is going to focus on a shady guy who is still a shady guy, despite family and real life. Again, even badass criminals have to face reality. Otherwise you're just some comical, 2d supervillan. I'm very happy with the whole mafia approach.
HOWEVER.
There's an entire other side to this coin, and it's called Saints Row The Third. If you want a gameworld you can call in laser pointed aerial assaults, fly your neon glowing fire breathing supercar of death off a building, off of a plane, and into a pool as you swiftly maneuver to a jetski while tossing pipe bombs at the oncoming police in hoverbikes, then Saints Row is for you. And yes, that is as fun as it sounds. Ok, I dont know if ALL of this is possible, but I know game be crazy. So eventually, I'll have both. When I want to do 360's while surfing on my car hood (actually has a fucking balance minigame for surfing on cars) I'll play SR3. When I want a gripping narrative noire experience I'll go for GTAV.
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K97u5usT9WY) Seriously. SR3 has hoverbikes. Fucking dude. Hoverbikes.
demagogue on 4/11/2011 at 01:39
@Scots, what kinds of things do you have in mind that would be refreshing to see?
To me, I see GTA as a series with clear mechanics that everyone's familiar with & that sells, almost like Civilization (which you couldn't imagine changing the formula too much), so I'm not surprised to see each iteration rehashing the basic mechanics, and open world, & mission structure.
If you don't like the mission structure (that's the most specific thing you mentioned I can imagine where you're going), it seems like the main alternative is to open the plot-advancement with something like open objectives, you have to go out in the world and achieve them at your own pace, and achieving one opens others, although that's almost getting into "quests" and RPG territory. Anyway, that's something I was thinking about that might be an interesting variation.
The other thing I was thinking about was more world simulation generally so you could, e.g., start an enterprise, buy properties & supplies, deal with competition & grift, and it all gets procedurally simulated (a real economy)... but it's not something you *had* to do, just something you could (parallel to the plot), or even more generally speaking, sandbox stuff going on persistently in the world that's not tethered down to missions but the world changes over the game procedurally by things you do. That could change the character of the game some too, but I'd like it anyway.
PigLick on 4/11/2011 at 01:52
It wouldnt suprise me to see some kind of thing like that, considering the main 'theme' is pursuit of the almighty dollar in a tough economic situation (from the looks of things). Chinatown Wars had a little side-game of drug-dealing, where prices would change according to supply and demand, it was really quite fun, and I would make a bet they will have something similar to that, but on a grander scale.
Also, I doubt anyone would like this idea, but I think the police wanted levels should be much stricter, but much easier to escape from. So, if you speed past a cop car, he starts chasing you, you run a red light while a cop is watching etc etc.
henke on 4/11/2011 at 06:37
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
What the fuck? You could tell jack shit about the gameplay, since none of it was shown.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the gameplay is gonna be driving cars fast and shooting guns. Sorry bro, but "radical reinvention" just sounds like empty PR talk to me. The difference between GTA2 & 3 was a radical reinvention, I'll believe GTA5 is reinventing things on the same scope when I see it.
SubJeff on 4/11/2011 at 07:00
Vice City let you buy property that made money for you, didn't it? I'd like an economy/business you could run alongside the plot. Perhaps opening up extra content depending on how you do.
I didn't mind the social stuff in IV at first, but later on it got really dull. You'd think the devs would be aware that a good chunk of players didn't like that aspect of the game.
Also guys - I have a PS3 and a PC. What's the best way for me to play San Andreas?
