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SD on 16/11/2006 at 18:37

Quote Posted by the_grip

i don't think Nazism or Communism are religions - they are political ideologies - but i can see your point.

I'm not sure you can ;)

Quote:

For example, one could say democracy is a religion

Not really. Democracy is just a form of government; furthermore, it has no Godlike figure to compare to Der Fuhrer, The Chairman or The Man of Steel.

Naziism, Stalinism and Maoism thrived because they built a cult of personality around one being, one man, just like Christianity did. They all used iconic imagery and symbols to unite the people behind them; Hitler even went as far as to lift his icon directly from religion itself.

These ideologies were conceived and implemented as direct replacements for religion, which is why they share so many elements. Democracy, on the other hand, is entirely compatible with religion.

So you can't use the deaths under Hitler, Stalin and Mao as an argument that the worst violence occurs irrespective of religion; these regimes were state religions in everything but name only, which is what made them so dangerous.

the_grip on 16/11/2006 at 18:44

i see what you are saying, and you are right. The figureheads of those three regimes did set themselves up as iconic figures in an effort to energize their respective populaces.

However, i still think my point remains. i can see how you would equivocate religion and these political regimes because both contain iconic figures and symbols, but i still think you are looking at two separate issues: religion on the one hand, and mob mentality or the like on the other.

i also do think that here in the US we do have our own versions of iconic symbols for the "religion" of democracy: just look at our coins and dollar bills.

Thus, i would definitely affirm the undergirding gist of what you are saying: mob mentality can be a dangerous facet of humanity if it is motivated by morally reprehensible causes. i just think it deals with a separate issue than religion (i.e. my point above regarding the abuse of something not invalidating its use).

SD on 16/11/2006 at 18:56

Quote Posted by the_grip

two separate issues: religion on the one hand, and mob mentality or the like on the other

Organised religion is the name we give to faith's mob mentality.

TheGreatGodPan on 17/11/2006 at 02:56

Vox Day, a fundie Christian libertarian asshole, who is nevertheless pretty interesting (I originally found his site through his fan, the atheist paleocon asshole Ilkka Kokkarinen of the now-defunct blog Sixteen Volts) has had a (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/11/mailvox-of-war-and-warfare.html) string (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/11/mailvox-in-defense-of-sam-harris.html) of (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/11/mailvox-somebody-is-getting-worried.html) posts (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/10/of-clausewitz-and-clowns.html) recently (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/10/mailvox-convinced-by-clowns.html) on (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/10/secularism-to-blame-for-islamic-terror.html) the relationship to religion and war. He's entertaining in weeding out the more airheaded atheist blather, but I've yet to see him make a positive case for religion. When someone (a muslim in this case) asked him why he believed (in a trinity specifically) he (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2006/10/mailvox-why-do-you-believe.html) finked out. I was also surprised he hasn't said anything about John Derbyshire's recent loss of faith in Christianity or Rod Dreher's conversion from Roman Catholic to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, but I guess he shies away from the personal lives of people he doesn't hate.