Greyhound Bus Tragedy

Paz on 6/3/2009 at 14:36

maybe it would've been better to properly fund provision at state/community level for the mentally ill to (try to) prevent this kind of thing before it occurs, but whatever i guess it's always more fun to jerk off about revenge fantasies after the event

Volitions Advocate on 6/3/2009 at 15:22

I listened to the interview the press had with the family, and what the father's main concern was that he'd get back out into the public and do it again.

I sympathize with this concern at least, because the Canadian correctional system has a big flaw in this concern. When People reach their term, they're released even when the people overseeing them say they are at a high risk to re-offend. How long is this guy going to stay in that mental hospital? They'll probably do whatever they can to rehabilitate him. give him his pills and say "you better take them on time".

He'll get out. stop taking his pills, and have another psychotic episode.

.... maybe Alma is hanging around the prarie provinces these days. Last summer a perfectly normal guy in Calgary went nuts out of nowhere and killed his entire family and a girl renting the basement suite of his house before killing himself. He did it all with a knife if I remember correctly.

I didn't know you were from Alberta Aja.

Starrfall on 6/3/2009 at 15:42

Quote Posted by Paz

Unfortunately sometimes people don't get the help they need until they've already committed some sort of crime. It's not unheard of for people to get arrested for something, then deteriorate in jail until they're sent to a state mental hospital where they get diagnosed with schizophrenia or whatever for the first time (which ends up being the reason why they got arrested in the first place). Not that that's an argument against proper funding, it's just a shame.

I think snauty's right though. As far as the family is concerned it's not about revenge, it's about a huge injustice that is being done to them and their son. The shitty thing for victims/survivors in a case like this is that there is no question that this guy killed their son. It's not like a murder case where we don't know if the defendant did it or not and the trial is how we decide. And here, it was very clear that he was in fact the killer WAY before there was any determination of competence. So from the very beginning, in their minds he's set in stone as the responsible party, without question. And then they get told "well no actually no one is really responsible because he's fucked in the head" and any closure they hoped to get flies out the window. None of this necessarily makes them right, but it makes their responses understandable. Some victims forgive criminals faster than I'd ever be able to, and some hold grudges for longer than I think I ever would, but I don't think enough time has passed for this family to be considered unreasonable for their anger. If they go vigilante and try to kill Li themselves it'd be another matter.

Thirith on 6/3/2009 at 15:56

Has there been any research into whether the death penalty provides closure for friends and family of victims? I'm asking because I'd assume that it doesn't, but I also know that this is my European pinko leftist bias talking rather than any actual knowledge.

Kolya on 6/3/2009 at 16:08

Obviously taking a life is the most satisfying thing to do. Oh wait...

Thirith on 6/3/2009 at 16:15

Kolya, while I basically agree with you, could you take a step back? Even as the most principled opponent of the death penalty, it doesn't take much imagination to see that there is a difference between murdering an innocent and taking a murderer out of circulation by killing him. As much as I believe that the state shouldn't have the right to do the latter, they're still two different things - or at the very least I can understand how not everyone agrees that they're identical.

Kolya on 6/3/2009 at 16:25

I didn't mean these things were the same. But in about five minutes people will come rollin in here and tell you that it's completely natural to take a life for a life. (That is if the people who call me an asshole aren't here first.) And then you will know why I said that.

Turtle on 6/3/2009 at 16:46

I still don't understand how mental illness should preclude someone from being tried in court.
People always say stuff like, "he didn't know what he was doing" or, "He didn't know it was wrong".
Doesn't that just increase the chances of doing it again?
Try them in court, sentence them to time in an institution, under medical/psychological care and see how they are coping at the end of their term.

Paz on 6/3/2009 at 16:46

Quote Posted by Starrfall

So from the very beginning, in their minds he's set in stone as the responsible party, without question. And then they get told "well no actually no one is really responsible because he's fucked in the head" and any closure they hoped to get flies out the window. None of this necessarily makes them right, but it makes their responses understandable.

Oh, absolutely - I was referring to responses from outside sources/this thread (which always pop up in similar instances) rather than the completely understandable frustrations and search for ... whatever it is you search for after something like that occurs, from the family members themselves.

My annoyance is directed towards those who are alarmingly keen to publically exhibit empathy-through-revenge, which I find disturbingly close to being an exploitation of grief. And, I suppose, at an (anecdotal) trend whereby people with an awful lot to say about the state of the criminal justice system are often ill-prepared to properly engage with some of the underlying causes of said crimes. I suppose I understand that too - it's easier to get angry about a murder than to grapple with the thrilling issue of mental health provision.

SD on 6/3/2009 at 17:10

Quote Posted by Thirith

it doesn't take much imagination to see that there is a difference between murdering an innocent and taking a murderer out of circulation by killing him

Yes, you're quite right. The death penalty is far worse.