bikerdude on 7/7/2008 at 18:21
Just an update on the state of monitor technology with a view to making Thief a much more enjoyable afair on LCD screens.
Current Panel types
* S-,AS-,H-,E-(IPS) panels are generally considered the best all around panel type, but they are more expensive and very few are made. High end, expensive.
* S-PVA/MVA panels offer better color reproduction and viewing angles than TN panels, have slightly worse response times than TN or S-IPS, offer the best contrast ratios, may suffer from color shifting or input lag and have higher availability than S-IPS panels. Mid range, fair price.
* TN panels are very cheap and have the fastest response times, but suffer from inferior color reproduction, contrast ratios and viewing angles. Low end, inexpensive.
* A reasonably comprehensive list of current monitors on the market -
(http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/index.php/Master_Monitors_List_22%22) linkSome basic info you need to know
* Widescreen monitors, a quick guide -
(http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/widescreen.htm) Link* Backlight bleed, a quick explanation -
(http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/backlight-bleeding.php) link* Colour depth, quick guide -
(http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/6bit_8bit.htm) LinkE-IPS(Dell) versus AS-IPS(NEC) Review:
Ok here is the review you lot have been waiting for, the Dell 2209WA(£180-200) versus the NEC 20wgx2Pro(£270-300):-
The Dell has better colour reproduction, lower black levels, slighly better viewing angles. The Whites are better on the Dell, the colour saturation in certain modes (Video, Sports) are better on the Dell than the NEC. Some response times are on par with the NEC, and possibly a tad smoother, but....... The menu is difficult to navigate and the dynamic contrast work in reverse to the way it does on the NEC. Also the Dell has a matt screen, unlike the NEC's glossy unit.
Dynamic contrast operation:-
* Dell
- in dark areas it decreases the Brightness and increases the detail in the shadows - hmmm ok'ish.
- in light areas it increases the Contrast, making a bright light source even brighter - wtf, ouch my eyes.
* NEC
- in dark areas it increases the Contrast and increases the detail in the shadows - as your eyes would.
- in light area it decreases the Contrast, adjusting to a bright light source - as your eyes would.
Monitor Menu operation:-
* NEC
- You can change between viewing modes (standard, gaming, photo etc) on the fly with a single button click
- You can turn DNR on/off per viewing mode.
* Dell
- There are several button presses to change viewing mode, grrrr.
- You can only turn DNR on/off, no per-mode setting. Also confirmation required everytime its changed...wtf.
The long and short of it is, if you can put up with the weird dynamic contrast operationg and the horrid menus then the Dell is a very good monitor for Thief. Here are some Thumbnails - the Dell is on the Left.
(
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/viewer.php?file=aexvq29n3i11tyqr3wv.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/images/aexvq29n3i11tyqr3wv_thumb.jpg (
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/viewer.php?file=jwkti5h5upt1900kdv0a.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/images/jwkti5h5upt1900kdv0a_thumb.jpg (
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/viewer.php?file=ze3uwu3ie7wytigv5qof.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/images/ze3uwu3ie7wytigv5qof_thumb.jpgH-IPS v S-IPS Review:
(http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1262785) link(
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/viewer.php?file=6lc54k9aiox9isdedou2.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://www.imagebam.info/multihost/images/6lc54k9aiox9isdedou2_thumb.jpgSo in reference to the pic above my oldish S-IPS based NEC 20wgx2pro dosent have A-TW polarizer that comes with some H-IPS based screens. So my NEC when viewed off-center in the dark, we can see a slight glow. So with that in mind my next monitor will either be an H-IPS w/polarizer or S-PVA/MVA based screen.
bikerdude on 7/7/2008 at 18:40
As promised a mini review of my S-IPS based NEC monitor
As per (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121879) this thread here is the this mini review of the NEC 20Wgx2, its an S-IPS screen which gives good viewing angels, mega sharp text & pictures, good colours and good response and black levels.
Here we have 3 monitors for comparison, Dell E176fp 17", Nec 20wgx2 20" and Samsung 15" CRT... on which I will do some simple yet effective tests on.
(
http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=all3kv5.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5858/all3kv5.th.jpgBelow we have the comparison shots of the Dell(left) and the Nec(right), you can see how bad the TN
based panel of the Dell is compared to the modern S-IPS of the Nec. Please note the camera over exposed
the Nec pics because the Nec is far brighter then the Dell.
Backlight bleed on the Dell is blotchy and not very uniform which is very evident in the pic's. The backlight
"colour" is brighter(blueish) on the Dell compared to the darker (grayish) of the Nec. The darker colour
and superior uniformity of the Nec doesn't detract from the atmosphere of the game.
(
http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dellvnec1yf4.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/566/dellvnec1yf4.th.jpg*(
http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dellvnec3es2.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/7624/dellvnec3es2.th.jpg*(
http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dellvnec4ve8.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1906/dellvnec4ve8.th.jpg*(
http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dellvnec5pu7.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8854/dellvnec5pu7.th.jpgHere is the comparison shots of the Nec(left) and the Samsung(right), you can see how the blacks
compare. The old Samsung CRT wins outright, but where the Nec wins is in sharpness, extra detail
and sheer brightness. Torches, fires, street lamps, shadows, have a real-world feel/glow to them.
(
http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=necvcrt1ia5.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5777/necvcrt1ia5.th.jpg*(
http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=necvcrt2vg6.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1888/necvcrt2vg6.th.jpg*(
http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=necvcrt3ov4.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2180/necvcrt3ov4.th.jpgWhen I get my Nec20wx2pro back from my mate, I`ll post the comparison shots of that
to the Nec20wx2 via the post below, FYI the pro version has even better blacks.
Apologies for the blurry pic's, but my wee camera can't focus fast enough in low light.
Ive used imageshack for image hosting, so the load times are slow.
biker
Hiatus on 7/7/2008 at 20:14
well done, biker :thumb: - thank you very much for this review!
waiting for part 2 with pro (1 of my lcd buy targets)
Too bad this NEC is not 22'' :( (not to mention 24''+ with full HD res). Because:
(
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9106/lcdsizesmt1uy0.gif)
As you can see 20.1'' wide is the height of normal, non-wide 17'' - a bit lacking :(.
btw anyone with version of this pic including 22'' wide?
As for images:
TN = crap in Thief as expected :mad:.
CRT - still unbeatable blacks/shadows. Looking forward to seeing 20wgx2 pro blacks.
ps biker, any chance for more pics and in higher res than 800x600, please? Maybe you could pack it in 1 .zip or similar and up somewhere saving you multiple upping and linking chore/time? TIA!
bikerdude on 7/7/2008 at 20:51
Quote Posted by Hiatus
Too bad this NEC is not 22'' :( (not to mention 24''+ with full HD res). Because:
The thing with 22" monitors is that they have the same native resolution as 20" monitors of 1680*1050 which means they 'may' look blurry/out of focus compared to a 20" showing the same resolution.
And 24" monitors are fine and dandy but you need my card(8800ultra) as a bare minimum to play any new games on something that size and that includes comtemporary Fm's (high res textures, far more polys, more complicated , ddfix loading, etc etc. As an example an Fm like Rocksbourge3 w/ddfix & w/screen patch @ 1680*1050 is just smooth enough, even I still get the odd stutter.
I`ll get my mate to drop the pro round sooner rather than later.
biker
Shadak on 7/7/2008 at 21:13
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
The thing with 22" monitors is that they are all 1680*1050 which means they will all look blurry/out of focus compared to a 20" showing the same resolution.
I'm not sure what you mean by this part. If you play with ddfix set at 1680x1050, it will be the native resolution for maximum sharpness. What other resolution are you talking about, 800x600?
Any LCD that has to emulate any other resolution than its native res will of course have to "blur" it a bit. But if the native res is very high and it's emulating something much lower, the blur will be less and less noticable. The real problem comes when emulating a resolution only slightly lower than native, because then it has to emulate 1.2/1 or 1.4/1 ratios (just examples) which are far less than ideal compared to 3/1 or 3.5/1 ratios.
bikerdude on 7/7/2008 at 22:21
Quote Posted by Shadak
I'm not sure what you mean by this part.
Hi there
What I mean is that 22" montors are a cheap mans 20" monitor, standard 20/22" resolution of 1680*1050 has to be stretched across another 2 inches of screen by way of having larger pixels. This leads to some percived blurring/fuzzyness depending on the make of monitor when compared with a 20" monitor. Because the manufacturing costs for 22" screens are lower and also 95% of them are cheap and chearful items which are aimed at the lower end of the market - which just compounds matters. Your better off getting a 20" or if you have a powerful gfx card and have the cash, then a 23/24"
Think about it this way, the choice you make is going to be staring right back at you each and every day. Use the hard work I have done as a guide.
biker
Shadowcat on 8/7/2008 at 03:11
edit: Thank you for the mini-review, btw! Very much appreciated!
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
What I mean is that 22" montors are a cheap mans 20" monitor, standard 20/22" resolution of 1680*1050 has to be stretch across another 2 inches of screen, which leads to the blurring/fuzzyness.
Unless I have some fundamental misunderstanding about LCD monitors, their native resolution corresponds to a physical array of cells/pixels. This being the case, and all other things being equal, the only difference between a 20" and a 22" LCD with the same native resolution would be that the latter has
slightly larger pixels.
On its own, this seems awfully unlikely to cause any notable degree of 'blurring' or 'fuzzyness'. Yes, the higher the dpi, the sharper the image, but we're not talking about a terribly significant difference here, and personally I'd
much rather have the larger screen.
A 22" widescreen will be about the same physical height as my 19" CRT (which I run at 1280x1024 most of the time), so 1680x1050 would be a pretty good match for pixel size, and I've never had any complaints running games at that screen resolution. Even going from 1600x1200 to 1280x1024 (which is a much bigger relative step than the one you're talking about), I can see the difference, but I would never describe the lower resolution as 'blurry'.
Maybe your eyes are just that much better than mine, but I'm inclined to say that the quality of the components (which you mentioned) is probably far more relevant than the difference in pixel size.
Quote:
Your better off getting a 20"
I really do suspect that depends on several factors. You're happier with a 20" screen at 1680x1050, but for my money a larger screen size definitely trumps smaller pixels in this instance (again, the pixel size at 22" should pretty much match what I see on my CRT at 1280x1024, which is just fine).
bikerdude on 8/7/2008 at 07:19
Quote Posted by Shadowcat
On its own, this seems awfully unlikely to cause any notable degree of 'blurring' or 'fuzzyness'. I can see the difference, but I would never describe the lower resolution as 'blurry'.Maybe your eyes are just that much better than mine,
Hi Shadowcat
I see what your saying, so what I'll will say then in closing is that every 22" i have come across has been noticeable poorer in quality which is maybe what my eyes are seeing as a slight blurring/fuzzyness etc.
We are lucky in the UK that we can buy something over the internet and if we don't like it return it in 7 days etc. I would say to people, do as much online research as possible, then if possible try and see your desired monitor in the flesh then make an informed purchase. Fyi I did 2months of online research and 6 weeks of testing (via the 7day dsd)
biker
Shadowcat on 8/7/2008 at 11:48
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
what I'll will say then in closing is that every 22" i have come across has been noticeable poorer in quality
That certainly seems like a far less contestable statement :) And useful to know. I'm looking for a 22" preferably, but I'll certainly try to make comparisons with some good 20" monitors now, and see if I notice any difference.
Quote:
I would say to people, do as much online research as possible, then if possible try and see your desired monitor in the flesh then make an informed purchase.
I would thoroughly agree with that. Quite aside from anything else, many of the numbers thrown about by manufacturers are next to meaningless for comparative purposes (as they simply bend them to their own purposes and definitions). Nothing beats personal experience.
Hiatus on 8/7/2008 at 12:49
Quote Posted by Bikerdude
what I'll will say then in closing is that every 22" i have come across has been noticeable poorer in quality
I'll add for less lcd market-orientated taffers: that's because vast majority of 22'' lcds on the market today are very cheap (for that size) displays, utililizing vastly inferior TN panel technology (which sucks in Thief, as seen on biker's pics).
I guess ~22'' S-IPS with 1680x1050 res would be ideal for me (I hope a bit larger pixel wouldn't be an issue for S-IPS). Any such beast on the market now?
ps biker, any chance for pics from *VA based panels (PVA, S-PVA, MVA, P-MVA, A-MVA etc etc)? That would be great to have all 3 major panel technologies (TN, *VA, and *-IPS) compared side-by-side in Thief..
