rachel on 23/4/2007 at 20:33

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I know that was a joke StealthThief (well the smileys lead me to think so anyway), but still...

One can vote for whoever they want, it's their right and I will never deny them that right. But fuck, it kills me to know that people like that do exist and can counteract a responsible vote.

People died so we could have that right. Take it seriously ffs. It's your future you're gambling with.

demagogue on 23/4/2007 at 21:42

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Left rhetoric feels better supporting, I can't deny it, but the thing is -- and I just say this as an interested outsider (newspaper reading American, and textbook centrist) not someone with a stake so take it with a grain of salt of course -- but France has a reputation for having one of the least disciplined economies of the major developed States (not just in Europe), in an economic environment these days (globalization, fluidity of capital, labor, etc) where discipline matters, and is only going to matter more and more as time goes on.

And the countries which have tightened the reins (UK, Germany, etc) in are taking the bumps much better than France, quoting the NYTimes, "whose gross domestic product per person in the past quarter-century has fallen to seventeenth place in the world, from seventh place. The country suffers from the fastest-growing public debt in Europe, high unemployment, entrenched protectionism, a bloated public sector and concerns about both immigration and the failure to integrate ethnic Arab and African populations." These problems are the classic symptoms of undisciplined fiscal policy.

From everything I've read, I certainly don't feel any deep connection to Sarkozy's rhetoric, I don't particularly like him that much actually and feel more personally warmed towards Royal, but at the end of the day he's got the program that the times call for, discipline. I'm personally of the bent that different times calls for different visions, and I like that the US has started its swing back to the Left recently. But I have this itching feeling that France, just for the time, needs to get over this hump in entrenching some fiscal discipline so that a later Left gov't can do its thing without compromising that.



Edit: Let me add to that, so I don't sound dogmatic because I don't mean to. Most everybody agrees in the US that Johnson and Nixon were two of the biggest asshole presidents there were. But LBJ had balls enough to entrench an incredibly ambitious social welfare and civil rights program that cannot be touched to this day, and Nixon opened China to the West, freeing its markets and giving us a way to at least make them listen to us on their democracy/human rights problems, and entrenched a series of fiscal disciplines that was probably more responsible for the Reagan and Clinton growth years than either of them, and prepping us for the global economy to come; it's also stayed with us and makes social programs much easier to swallow. All I mean to say is, in the grand scheme of things -- we still have social security, modern welfare, civil rights programs, an open China, and fiscal discipline -- and it took two real assholes to give it to us that gave us real pain at the time (it would have been much better if we could have gotten these things without LBJ's Vietnam or Nixon's paranoia, of course).

But we needed these things, and somebody had to give it to us sooner or later. I feel like with France, it needs fiscal discipline in the trouble areas (subsidies & trade, tax, employment, etc), and somebody is going to have to give it to them sooner or later. But the longer it waits the more it will suffer from the problems in the above paragraph ... they don't go away without it. But once they are entrenched, it helps everything from then on.

rachel on 23/4/2007 at 22:27

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I'm not voting Socialist because I'm politically correct. I'm voting that because I honestly feel the other options are not adequate and I also feel that the other candidate is a public danger.

Think what you may, I do vote for what I think is best for my country, and I do so after reviewing their positions on stuff, not "lol socialists lol PC VOTE!"

Also lol I gots to vote lol

I can't make fun of what voters like you did to your country because we're doing the same to ours right now. But rest assured, the thought's there.



demaguoge, that wasn't dogmatic. You bothered to have a look and think about it before writing a reply, unlike other people...
The problem is that Sarkozy had five years to do these changes. He absolutely can not say he didn't have the power, the funds, or the influence to shake things up and actually serve the country for a change. But no, he didn't. He made it safer to drive, I'll give him that, but other than repression, he doesn't know anything.
His actions as a minister stirred racial hatred and civil unrest, which culminated in the infamous 2005 riots.
He shamelessly betrayed his bosses countless times to get closer to the throne. He torpedoed his rivals and potential rivals disclosing info to the Justice so that only he could be the candidate of his party. And of course he got a stalinian vote, because he denied the UMP members the right to choose. Up until recently, his official campaign visits were preceded by coaches full of cops to clear the way (The other candidates had a standard security detail, a few bodyguards)
His ideas of crime and suicide being genetic predispositions, his proposed creation of a Ministery of National Identity are stinkers that remind everyone of Vichy.
He had journalist fired because they talked bad about him, or just published something without his authorization, and all his best friends control the businesses and poll agencies, his brother sits at the MEDEF, the "syndicate of CEOs"... There's like a conflict of interest somewhere...

I can't, I just can't think that someone like that is suited to be president.

rachel on 24/4/2007 at 20:25

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Actually Berlusconi would be a better example. But yeah.

Swiss Mercenary on 24/4/2007 at 22:22

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It's not that he's a conservative that's the problem.

It's the fact that he is a complete and utter fucktard.