Mandragora on 17/6/2022 at 13:41
oh, and there is this.. form The Dark Project credits video.
also, she is listed as a 'Lead Designer' for Thief Gold.
(
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ko2LiTxF6VHg4rh8OEV60_KilM_g8PQs/view?usp=sharing)
oh, and by the way, i think your link shows Terri Brosius talking about The Song of Caverns level.
Those bloody women amateurs, strumpets of The Trickster!
i mean.. yeah.. i have nothing more to say. tar and feathers, maybe..
zajazd on 17/6/2022 at 14:26
It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.
Azaran on 17/6/2022 at 15:02
This was also my most disliked mission in T1. Too many sewer areas, it gets frustrating and monotonous.
I would have redone it by keeping it at the same size, but replacing a lot of sewer areas with more guild hideout sections (i.e. like the ones in the immediate vicinity of the Overlord's Fancy's basement).
Cigam on 17/6/2022 at 15:30
Easy for me to forget now as I've become so familiar with it, but yes, the Guild can be a frustrating level for those new to it.
Often there is no real clue on how to progress, as the only hint or pointer might be in a document you've missed, or a conversation that didn't complete because you interupted the talking NPCs.
And even when you do know what sort of thing you need to be looking out for, well it might be behind a sealed door you have no clue how to open, or in a secret area whose entrance is easy to miss. Or just be a needle within a very large haystack.
I think this is why beta testing is so important. If only people who already know the solutions and where everything is test the mission, then they can't be the most objective judges of how hard it is.
Well, for all I know maybe the Guild actually was thoroughly beta-tested, but it comes across to me as a level that could have done with more signposts. And gives me the feeling that there was no real appreciation of how people playing this mission completely blind would be likely to fare within it.
The Shroud on 17/6/2022 at 19:40
Quote Posted by zajazd
It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.
Okay... No. While I will readily admit that Thieves' Guild has some pretty problematic gameplay issues and likely would have benefited from thorougher play-testing, there is no evidence to support your hypothesis of some sort of angry intentions on Sara Verrilli's part. Thieves' Guild is certainly not among my favorite missions (I would probably rank it below Escape! and Strange Bedfellows), but it's not completely terrible either. It mixes some elements I enjoy with others that are probably the least enjoyable for me in the game. I would still rather play it than Sabotage at Soulforge, though.
Twist on 17/6/2022 at 21:44
My main issue with this mission is its placement in the narrative sequence. For me, it works better played as an FM separate from the main game.
Placing any mission between Assassins and The Sword kind of trips up the start of the game's main narrative. But placing a particularly long, difficult mission with no real bearing on the main plot in between those missions?
It's one of the reasons I prefer TDP to TG, despite how I actually like Thieves' Guild and Song of the Caverns as individual missions.
zacharias on 17/6/2022 at 22:31
Quote Posted by zajazd
Ok, white knights.
You cluelessly linked to a video showing Terri Brosius. People pointed out she's not even the mission author. Then you come back with this ‘white knights' crap. What a total bellend you are.
downwinder on 17/6/2022 at 22:40
i want to say i loved the bracelet in that mission and its rarely used in fan missions,i think i played one other fan mission where that bracelet is in it,a restyled of the thieves guild
i always wondered if there was anything more to that bracelet as in lore/magical?
Mandragora on 17/6/2022 at 22:58
Quote Posted by zajazd
It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.
just keep walking, son.
you are far from It-all-finally-comes-together-ville.
deep breaths, on foot in front of the other, and eventually, you will get there.
The Shroud on 18/6/2022 at 03:15
Quote Posted by Twist
My main issue with this mission is its placement in the narrative sequence. For me, it works better played as an FM separate from the main game.
Placing any mission between Assassins and The Sword kind of trips up the start of the game's main narrative. But placing a particularly long, difficult mission with no real bearing on the main plot in between those missions?
It's one of the reasons I prefer TDP to TG, despite how I actually like Thieves' Guild and Song of the Caverns as individual missions.
Absolutely right. Even aside from the structural issues it creates in the storyline, it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint — jumping from the difficulty level of Assassins, which is barely more challenging than Lord Bafford's Manor and arguably less difficult than Break from Cragscleft Prison and Down in the Bonehoard (don't get me wrong, Assassins is still my favorite mission from the entire series, but it's not hard), to the most challenging mission of the game by far is jarring, to say the least. The player has just gotten the hang of integrating lock-picking with stealth and sneaking past a few more guards than they dealt with in Bafford's manor, and now the game throws
this at them? And if that weren't awkward enough, then the gameplay reverts
back to a more moderate difficulty in The Sword, which feels perfectly placed after Assassins and before The Haunted Cathedral in terms of challenge. Thieves' Guild sticks out like a sore thumb in the game's pacing. It really does belong in a separate Thief game altogether, with a separate storyline (either a prequel to TDP, something in-between TDP and TMA, or between TMA and TDS).
Quote Posted by zajazd
It is just the worst level layout, in any game, ever! I have always disliked it, but now I HATE it! It is even worse than I remember it, it is just 500 small spaces randomly connected, and some of them copied to confuse you even more. Even a computer generated level couldn't ever be this bad! But the worst part is that
it has killed my desire to replay T1!...
I HATE Thief Gold! When I was buying Thief anthology on Ebay many years ago, I specifically asked the seller if it really was The Dark Project as the game case said and he confirmed it, but of course at the end it turned out to be Gold hahaha Before that, lightyears ago, when I didn't have internet at home, I asked someone to *obtain* Thief for me and said that it had to be The Dark Project, of course he got me Gold HAHAHAHA
Before anyone says it, yes I know that you can skip missions in Thief, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of replaying a game? And I know that a mod exists that turns Gold into Dark Project, but I'm not going to replay the first few missions again, it will have to wait for some years. Thank you late Looking Glass for spoiling one of my favorite games :mad:
I'm really sorry that that mission had such a negative impact on you, and that you experienced such hardships in trying to obtain Thief: The Dark Project. I fully agree that TDP is better than Thief Gold, which seems not to be the predominant perspective among Thief fans. I think your frustrations with playing Thieves' Guild have clouded your reasoning, though. People who defend the mission and its designer are not automatically "white knights" just because they disagree with your perspective. Take a closer look at their comments and grant them the decency of accepting their reasons at face value instead of inventing ulterior motives for them, as you did for Sara Verrilli herself. Clearly they had different experiences with the mission than you did, otherwise they'd share your feelings about it.
Personally, I actually happen to agree with your broader views about the mission layout, albeit not quite as angrily. I think you raise some valid criticisms. And I also think others raise some valid counterpoints. Ultimately, though, all that really matters is how the mission impacts each player personally (playing a game itself is a deeply personal experience), and that is something that will always be subjective on some level. I see no reason for hostility from either side on this subject.
