marbleman on 4/9/2022 at 18:45
Yeah I get what you mean now.
klatremus on 6/10/2022 at 03:07
Just edited Ghost rule #5 and Supreme rule #12 to include information about enemy suicides and infighting, as discussed back in May. Please let me know if you see any glaring mistakes.
(
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523) Here
Galaer on 29/12/2023 at 21:05
So I try to learn banner transmigration and I managed to get on the other side of banner, but I'm still stuck to it. I seen Travis Whitsitt's video about it in Shipping and Receiving, but he returned to the side he started. How to get unstuck on the other side of banner?
ultravioletu on 21/1/2024 at 12:01
Fresh cases for trial, from this week's experience (The Brand):
* at the E end of abandoned area adjacent to Glendower Estate, I had to pass through a room with a dead body, lying in a pool of blood and leaned against the wall, to reach a dead end with loot. I had to walk close to it, and it did NOT alert (acustically) like a regular sleeper. After taking the loot, the body was "transformed" into a patrolling zombie but also teleported elsewhere (it patrols back here, though). It looks to me like a scripted response, not to a detection reaction that normal sleeping zombie have. Is this a supreme bust for #4? (actually, if a zombie wakes up, then it busts normal ghost rule #4 as well, right?)
* Taking the diamond in Hawtrey Mannor destroys the skeleton holding it. Is this property damage, busting ghost rule #3?
What do you, judges :), think?
(I already know that Perfect Supreme is definitely not possible for this mission, but I wanna know by how much, and also whether Perfect Thief is still on table).
ultravioletu on 3/3/2024 at 14:18
Quote Posted by Galaer
@klatremus: About crates left on window - there is a problem. There is certain rule hidden in rule #7 of supreme ghosting about Putting Everything back that can be put back that prevents you doing that:
"You cannot stack boxes to gain access to an area when your stack is on the patrol path of an AI. If it can be done in a shadowed area off a patrol path or
even in direct light where no one is patrolling, that is fine."
This rule prevents you leaving crate not only on patrol route, but bolded part prevents you from leaving them in lighted area near patrol route. This window is well lighten and room is visited by patrolling monk who can see crates. It's rarely used rule, but it's there. Also since rule is talking abvout stacking boxes I'm usually applying it to all stackable objects like rocks, potions, etc.
If someone asked me, I would say it's a bust to build the stack there.
Quote Posted by Galaer
I think it's actually excused by objective. Like you said I need to find out who's mastermind and I can only find it out by interrogating murderer and to do that I need to KO him To be honest I count this objective the same as free Major objective from mission 7 - it doesn't state that I need to KO him, but that's the only way to complete this objective. Also notice that you don't remove murderer from scene, because he wakes up to talk with you, so he's still conscious. He gets removed, because poison kills him, but this completes objective.
Meethinks it's a bust too, "find out" does
not imply KO, and for the ghost rules that counts.
But I start to think that completing the main objective in Heretic is a bust as well. It says "
free the Major and get him outside the Monastery", not "
kidnap him", which heavily implies coercion. There are (scripted) ways to free and lead NPCs outside unharmed, like Jenivere in "Running Interference" or the traficked children in "Saints and Thieves". So "get him out" does not necessarily means "b/j him". Yes, it's unavoidable
in this mission, and intended by author - and annoying that this discussion could have been prevented with a clearer wording (in both affected missions)...
And: whether it's a bust or not is IMHO less important than judging both situations equally. The author clearly intended the player to knock-out the opponents, and the player must do it to proceed, but worded the objectives in a way that ghost busts are not excused automatically .
ultravioletu on 3/3/2024 at 14:32
Quote Posted by Galaer
(...)
But have in mind, these rules only take into account problems from OMs, which are over 20 years old and not new problems created in FMs by their authors. So unlike OMs it's impossible to apply these rules 1 to 1 towards FMs. You need to apply them with some flexibility.
(...)
And why these objectives not appear in the rules? Simply, in OMs there is never any situation when ghost busts trigger bonus objectives. That's another reason why
you need to be flexible when applying official rules to FMs.
(...)
This very thread is an attempt to adapt/modernize the ghost rules, to avoid exactly that. I started it, I succeeded with some amendments, and I failed miserably with others, but it is like it is. We are talking about an arbitrarily chosen set of rules applied to a game that has arbitrary semblance to reality.
We can discuss about the specific points and improvements, and some changes may very well make it into the rules. But until then, we'll just stick to the ones we have.
klatremus on 7/3/2024 at 16:39
Quote Posted by ultravioletu
Fresh cases for trial, from this week's experience (The Brand):
* at the E end of abandoned area adjacent to Glendower Estate, I had to pass through a room with a dead body, lying in a pool of blood and leaned against the wall, to reach a dead end with loot. I had to walk close to it, and it did NOT alert (acustically) like a regular sleeper. After taking the loot, the body was "transformed" into a patrolling zombie but also teleported elsewhere (it patrols back here, though). It looks to me like a scripted response, not to a detection reaction that normal sleeping zombie have.
Is this a supreme bust for #4? (actually, if a zombie wakes up, then it busts normal ghost rule #4 as well, right?)
* Taking the diamond in Hawtrey Mannor destroys the skeleton holding it.
Is this property damage, busting ghost rule #3?
What do you, judges :), think?
(I already know that Perfect Supreme is definitely not possible for this mission, but I wanna know by how much, and also whether Perfect Thief is still on table).
#1 is definitely not a bust, as it is 100% scripted and no alerts ever occur.
#2 is more uncertain. Nobody gets alerted, although an apparition spawns on the ground floor. Is someone's skeleton property? What if just one of those bones were made of gold, would taking it as loot constitute damaging property? I don't think so. But here, all the bones separate and go flying everywhere. They could be reassembled and no individual bone gets broken. I don't think it breaks any rule, but it doesn't feel very clean either, certainly not for Supreme. Anyone else have input on this?
Cigam on 9/3/2024 at 20:52
Just had a re-read of the property rules.
"“Property” is defined as something that is fabricated by humans or other intelligent creatures (boards, glass, doors, machines, banners, etc). Natural objects like foliage, boulders, icicles, cobwebs, etc are not considered property and would not bust ghost."
well, skeletons and other dead bodies are natural and not property as defined above.
If the skeleton was being used as part of a designed structure of some kind, such as a door someone made out of bones, then that might be different? But a skeleton per se is not off limits?
Although agree that it is less "clean", as you are still changing the environment from its starting state unnecessarily.
On another note, is "fabricated" the right word there? Several definitions are along the lines of:
"invent (something) in order to deceive."
whereas we are probably talking more about materials or structures that have been created or designed by intelligent entities, without any deception necessarily being involved.