Galaer on 31/7/2022 at 15:45
I have a question about alerting neutral to us AI by making noise. Like some neutral AI can 1st alert to sound of opening door, so this could be supreme bust. Or neutral AI could alert to explosion caused by us and could go into search mode. So this could be a ghost bust. I have the situation like that in Durant. When you use code in Mechanists Factory to create gear to Grimworth and de Perrin Fine Relics, it creates explosion. You must do that to complete loot objective and you can't grab gear through door. The problem is that nearby small monkey in cage 2nd alerts to explosion. It's a neutral AI that doesn't alert to Garrett. Mission has been reported by Vanguard, dafydd and goldsla and none of them mentioned this situation in their reports. Maybe they missed it, I don't know. So is this situation ghost bust or not?
klatremus on 31/7/2022 at 15:50
That sounds like a pretty clear bust to me. Neutral AI are treated the same as all other AI, it's just they dont alert as often. Before the explosion, does the monkey alert if it sees you draw and use a weapon?
Galaer on 31/7/2022 at 16:38
Quote Posted by klatremus
That sounds like a pretty clear bust to me. Neutral AI are treated the same as all other AI, it's just they dont alert as often. Before the explosion, does the monkey alert if it sees you draw and use a weapon?
Monkey only alerts when I make louder noise like for example shoot broadhead arrow into wall. It doesn't alert to sound of me jumping on metal floor though.
Galaer on 31/7/2022 at 16:39
Quote Posted by klatremus
That sounds like a pretty clear bust to me. Neutral AI are treated the same as all other AI, it's just they dont alert as often. Before the explosion, does the monkey alert if it sees you draw and use a weapon?
Monkey only alerts when I make louder noise like for example shoot broadhead arrow into wall. It doesn't alert to sound of me jumping on metal floor though.
klatremus on 31/7/2022 at 17:10
Well, at least that shows the alert to the explosion isn't scripted, since you can trigger the same response in other ways. A bust to me. Agreed?
Galaer on 31/7/2022 at 19:12
Yeah, I just wanted to confirm that, because other 3 ghosters allowed that alert.
Galaer on 19/8/2022 at 12:07
I had a bit of discussion with klatremus about his latest report and this question came to my mind. If you destroy something like for example wall and later fix it with some tools, so it looks like damage property never happened, is it means that ghost bust from damage property is nullified or not? What are your thoughts?
Cigam on 19/8/2022 at 16:17
Galaer, I think that the general sense I get is that only the events of the moment are considered? With future happenings and changes not retrospectively overwriting what is a bust in the moment?
klatremus on 20/8/2022 at 23:28
Quote Posted by Galaer
In game functionality doesn't change, just banner looks broken.
That is not true. A very important part of the banner's functionality is to hide the entrance. When it's cut, you can clearly see the entrance so the functionality is drastically changed. Also, cutting banner is one of the 3 examples specifically used in the rules, along with breaking crates and bashing in doors.
Let me ask you this, Galaer. What if you were given a tool like a crowbar that made you able to bend the middle bar of the prison door without cutting it. After that you could bend it out in order to leave and then bend it back to make it look like it was normal. Would you then say it is property damage? You have compromised the integrity of the cell door just the same, by weakening the metal enough in order to leave. This is a good discussion to have and I appreciate your input. My point is that I don't think the makers of the rules thought about situations where you can reverse the damage, or where you question whether there is real damage done even. Is weakening something real damage?
Quote Posted by Galaer
So far there is only one answer and it says that damage property is a bust and nothing done later to it will erase it.
Cigam put a question mark after both of his statements, indicating that he is uncertain and requesting confirmation.
Quote Posted by Galaer
I don't think it's good thing to make exceptions on using flashbombs or similar in use items just because it doesn't let some AIs to make reaction, because they don't have any programmed reaction to that.
But we are not making exceptions.
Flash bombs are never even mentioned in the rules, Galaer. The only thing mentioned is if enemies alert. If they don't alert, it is not a bust. Changing an enemy's ability to see you if it doesn't illicit a visible or audible reaction of any kind is not a bust.
Cigam on 21/8/2022 at 05:02
Wouldn't considering the weakening of a bent bar be like considering the internal degradations to the lockpicked lock? ie considering the real-world logic?
Whereas the ghost is more concerned with visible damage and functional damage to the object?
But while I personally wouldn't get worked up by the theoretical weakening of the bar, you are definately visibly and functionally damaging the door.
Is this excused by later restoring the door to its original visual and functional state?
As previously said, I personally wouldn't have expected this to be so.
But are there any other accepted excused busts of this kind? Would turning the Watcher back on reverse the bust of turning it off? Vomiting up the speed potion (if any FM has tht mechanic) undo the bust of drinking it? Turning the light back on excuse turning it off?
Oh well, I suppose that once again the ghost rules have served their purpose of providing a hard challenge. Not only for those playing them, but sometimes also for thosse debating their exegesis as well :)
