Galaer on 25/5/2022 at 16:28
I guess english still has a lot of nuances hard to understand for me. One more thing that I would think it would be good to add to this rule is information that you are allowed to manipulate result of infighting by saving and loading game. We take that for granted, but new player may not know about that.
Also speaking about this fact a question: what if on battlefield is pool of water (like canal in city), what if one of AI fighting will stand for second above water and we use save/load to make him fall and drown? So is this situation gonna count as suicide caused by us and disallowed or count as allowed manipulation of infighting (as it was done by saving and loading game)?
klatremus on 25/5/2022 at 19:03
It's ok, Galaer. I have lived in the US for so long I consider myself a native speaker almost. Sometimes it's good for us to get a foreign speaker to help clarify the rules. I will write up a new suggestion with the examples later today. No saving and reloading has never been a bust, but if excessively used, perhaps its frowned upon and disliked. But I agree that would be good to include in the rules.
And likewise in your last question, no that would not be a bust. You are not causing the suicide, the game engine is and is outside your control. I mean if you reload later in the mission the guard will just fall in then, so you have to play the rest of the mission ironman to avoid it? No, loading is ok.
Galaer on 26/5/2022 at 11:26
Quote Posted by klatremus
And likewise in your last question, no that would not be a bust. You are not causing the suicide, the game engine is and is outside your control. I mean if you reload later in the mission the guard will just fall in then, so you have to play the rest of the mission ironman to avoid it? No, loading is ok.
Yes, guards may for second be above water and then return to ground and sometimes they will go too far above water or pit and they will fall on their own. But my question was actually about intentionally sending guard into water to drown through saving and loading, because for example weaker AI is our ally and stronger AI will easily kill him.
klatremus on 26/5/2022 at 18:01
If there's only a second or so when the guard is over water and you intentionally save reload then just to get the guard killed, that would not be allowed. But if you find the guard dead and it might have died because of you saving earlier when you were elsewhere, then nobody would call it a bust. It's difficult because it isn't really covered by a rule, but I think it goes against all ghosters' conscience to use exploitative tactics like that to get enemies killed. Its different if enemies are already in a scripted fight like in Mines of Margroth and you reload until you get a desirable outcome, because enemies would die regardless.
Galaer on 26/5/2022 at 19:12
Good to know. One more question (a bit off topic): I was wondering if damage property rule was always in ghost rules, or was it added to the rules at some point. I'm asking because I have 2 successful reports that allowed destruction of wooden planks, though didn't mention about that. I'm talking about Vanguard's Enterprise (T1) and dafydd's Docks... All Aboard (T2).
klatremus on 26/5/2022 at 19:30
I believe it was added yes. It wasn't long after the first release though, but there might be a few reports that violate it. I will look at those reports later and might change it to failed status, just to keep it updated to modern rules. Let me know if you find more.
I didnt join the Eidos forums until 2002, then TTLG in 2003, so I dont know all the details.
klatremus on 26/5/2022 at 20:53
Have you seen this archived website, Galaer?
(
https://web.archive.org/web/20151007125035/http://forums.eidosgames.com/old-ubb/)
Look at "Thief Modes of Play - Final Rules to Suggested Styles of Play" and "Question about ghost/perfect" on the left. Those are the first draft of the rules released way back in 2000. It seems from those rules that property damage was included from the first version, or at least from very early on. Before those reports you talked about at least, although I read through Vanguard's report on the Enterprise and I couldn't see him talking about breaking wooden boards. This is the T1 version though, which I haven't played. Maybe there are no wooden boards to break in that mission?
Galaer on 27/5/2022 at 14:15
I watched Nexus Letum's video of Enterprise and both Master key and wooden planks are in the same places like in T2 version.
klatremus on 30/5/2022 at 06:45
Suggestion for rule #5 clarification:
5a. Garrett must not cause suicides of AI, for example by blocking a patrol path so an enemy falls into water, or luring an enemy underneath a crushing elevator.
5b. Garrett must also not cause enemy infighting where AI start attacking each other or make them run away, with the exception of rule 12. Examples: You are not allowed to leave a door open so enemies spot each other and start fighting; and you cannot use a device to create friendly AI that start attacking enemies for you.
Cigam on 30/5/2022 at 20:35
"5b. Garrett must also not cause enemy infighting where AI start attacking each other or make them run away, with the exception of rule 12."
I am just wondering if this could get misunderstood to mean: Garrett must not cause in-fighting AND Garrett must not make AI run away?
If you wanted to be extremely careful you Might say:
"5b. Garrett must also not cause enemy infighting where AI start attacking each other or AI runs away from other AI, with the exception of rule 12."
I only mention this because of the recently discussed rule-misunderstanding of fights being specified as having been caused by AI suicides.
