marbleman on 25/3/2022 at 14:14
I don't think it's necessary. It's an exploit like any other and is, in my opinion, not any worse than flare elevatoring, which has never been outright banned. If someone goes back to those older missions and finds ways of bypassing ghost busts with it, well, all power to them. I don't think it invalidates a report made without the exploit.
Galaer on 25/3/2022 at 16:04
@klatremus:
1) I believe that gentle clip is actually easier to do in Olddark without new mantle and in Newdark it's just harder to perform it.
2) I disagree with that statement. During my ghost runs I noticed some interactions, which led me to learn new ghosting techniques. For example other way than using rope or ladder to quietly descend into water. I use for that mantling. If ledge is slightly above water or on the same level as water and ledge is mantleable, you can try to mantle slightly above water and then immediately cancel it. This way you can quietly drop into water. It may be an exploit, though it works similarly to descending via ladders - you slow down your falling speed. Should I count using this technique as a ghost bust just because previous ghosters never found out about this technique? I don't think so.
3) With this statement I agree. Other exploits have some limitations that makes them useful only in certain places. This one can be used to clip through every door, every gate and even certain solid walls of certain width (I believe it's 1 unit). Thanks to that you bypass every challenge. I believe that ghosting wasn't create just to score as many successes as possible, but rather for players to have fun. But can you really say that you have fun if you skip the whole challenge?
klatremus on 25/3/2022 at 23:52
@Galaer:
1) Excuse me!? I have never heard of anyone doing that move in Olddark, or seen it on video. Have you actually done it? Could you provide a link to a video of someone doing that in Olddark? The first time I heard about the move was from Phych0sis who is a speedrunner. In their community they use that clip all the time, but he told me it was only possible in NewDark with newmantle on.
2) That move has actually been known for a long time. Clayman did that move to get the ring from the spiders in Baffords without using crates. He took the loot by doing a half-mantle from the water and sliding back down without making noise. My point wasn't to disallow all unknown exploits, Galaer. It was to disallow the gentle clip, which at least I thought was only a NewDark feature. And it was in conjunction with the other 2 points also, not just based on 2) alone.
Galaer on 26/3/2022 at 08:52
@klatremus:
1) This is Psychosis (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUO-kALoNfE&t=84s) video. He plays in Olddark and performs gentle clip without weapons.
2) The way you mentioned that was like only exploits mentioned in the rules can be used and unknown for previous ghosters exploits or techniques are violation to the rules. But it's not like these exploits were find all at once, so there are definitely still some unknown techniques to discover. As for clayman's report - I couldn't find it. But from what you are saying the purpose was to elevate yourself from water to reach loot and quickly drop it into water without making noise. I don't think it was known to fall into water quietly from ground.
3) Since we are talking about clipping how about banning clipping into walls in TDM too. I suspect this glitch is connected to low framerate, so if you have fast computer you will never experience that. I was playing complex mission and I have weak for this game laptop plus I left opened all doors, which made lag even bigger. And this glitch happened. Even though it happened to me only in one spot in this mission, I suspect it could be possible to use it often with even weaker hardware and potentially break other missions. Though I never checked what is the real advantage of clipping into walls in TDM as I was quickly reloading game.
klatremus on 26/3/2022 at 17:20
Wow, I never knew that! I stand corrected then. I wonder why I was told it could only be done in ND. In that case, there is no discussion, as it falls into the general engine exploit category. I don't think I will ever use this to claim success. I considered it before Turning of the Leaves, but it just seems like outright cheating. I've only ever used it once, in Haunted Cathedral to avoid using the fire arrow, but that was more to showcase the method, and that I know is only possible in NewDark.
Galaer on 3/4/2022 at 18:48
Since I don't see the point of making special thread for ghosting techniques I discovered I will put them here. No idea if some of these were also discovered before.
1) First thing isn't really a ghosting technique, but it was a useful trick for me. When you are equipped with weapon and move some objects constantly and you are annoyed by Garrett equipping weapon after putting object down, but you forget to put weapon down after you put the object, you can put down your weapon even when you carry objects. You can't change your weapons though.
2) Mantle cancel technique to drop quietly into water. This is the technique that I used 10+ times. There are 2 ways to use it based on where the surface of water is located. If water surface is a bit below ground and it's mantleable you can try to drop into water towards ground, mantle on it and immediately cancel it. If you were low enough above water when you mantle canceled, you should fall quietly into water. However if water surface is on the same level as ground and ground is mantleable, you need to drop on edge of ground and slowly go backwards towards water. When you notice that you start dropping, immediately mantle and cancel it to fall into water quietly.
3) I noticed 2 optimizations with nudging. First of all leaning can be useful when you try nudging someone. When for example you nudged guard on some chair or table you can try to stand and lean towards him to nudge him. Once I had situation where guard was in front of doorway that much that I couldn't nudge him from the side. Then leaning forward helped me. I opened door, leaned forward towards doorway and turned to the side towards guard. This allowed me to nudge him forward, so I could then switch to normal nudging from the side.
Small spiders can be really annoying to nudge with crate. They turn twice: first they do short turn and afterwards long 180 degrees turn and return to their original position. From what I know other ghosters put crate on these spiders and wait for their long turn, then quickly grab crate before it will hit ground. What I noticed is that crate can nudge spiders during their short turn as well. It's very small nudge, so it's easy to miss that. It's much slower nudge, but also much safer as you don't need to worry about crate hitting ground. This could potentially be useful during ironman ghost run or when you are getting crazy from crate hitting ground for 20th time.
4) Normally if you drop or throw crate into water it will stay non solid. But there is a way for it to be solid in water. You simply need to put crate on ground and bump into it, so it will fall on water. This technique could be useful if you need to get out of water, but ledge is a bit too high. Other use is if you need to drop into shallow water. This kind of water is shallow enough, so it will not nullify fall damage, but still deep enough, so every object dropped will non solid. I actually used crate in that way once to avoid fall damage.
5) Extended mantle. You do it in corners. You need to mantle on ledge or object and then turn to the side towards higher ledge. Your mantle will continue and you will manage to mantle on higher ledge even though it would be impossible for you to mantle there normally. Used this technique only once to get out of water. I placed crate in water near high ledge, then I mantled on it while having higher ledge on the side. It's possible that you can mantle on crate only thanks to the new mantle. You can't stay on crate as it's non solid, so during your mantle turn towards higher ledge and if you are close enough to it you will continue your mantle.
6) Returning arrows in form of lying on ground arrows is possible. You need area with high ceiling and also higher place than where you want to return arrows (2nd or 3rd floor in regards to the spot where you want to place arrows). From this higher place you need to shoot arrow upward, so it will fall on lower spot where you want to place arrow. After a long flight, it will deactivate and arrow will fall on ground in form of lying on ground arrow ready to pick up. Possibly useful in supreme ghost to return arrows, but due to the requirements of size of room it can be rarely used. I used it only once.
7) Falling from high place without getting hurt. This is the technique that I don't really understand how it works. Sometimes when you fall on edge of even middle of flat ground you will not receive any damage. I also know that if you find once the perfect angle you can repeat, but this technique is very precise. It requires jumping forward and through the whole fall you must hold forward and jump, otherwise you will get hurt. Also this no damage fall only happens when you jump into diagonal positions on your compass (it worked for me with NW and SW directions). It's really rare technique - in almost 3 years of ghosting it happened to me only couple of times. And it's possible to happen on both Thief Gold and Thief 2.
marbleman on 11/5/2022 at 19:11
Is destroying plants (such as pitcher plants and eyeball plants) against any rules?
Galaer on 11/5/2022 at 19:57
No idea about pitcher plant, but eyeball plant is an AI, so killing it is forbidden unless you have objective to kill it. Same goes with rats. No matter how neutral aI is you aren't allowed to kill it. Pitcher plant isn't AI and maybe could be classified as natural obstacle.
klatremus on 12/5/2022 at 01:19
Any creature that can react to your presence (hence an AI) would bust ghost if killed. Rats run away, eyeball plant turns towards you, regular plants dont. If the pitcher plant is just a decorative obstacle, then it's ok, unless its someone's property and would bust that rule instead.
marbleman on 12/5/2022 at 10:09
Pitcher plants hurt you when you get close, so I guess you could call that a reaction.
