klatremus on 12/1/2022 at 22:55
Yes then I know what gentle clip is, I just wasn't familiar with the term. I used it to get ghost success in Haunted Cathedral in my segmented run. That is transmigration of a barrier, so that would follow the rule and be an exploit.
Vanishing doors are just annoying. I try to prevent it if I can, but if it happens it's certainly no bust. Not an exploit no.
Well since I used the bow and sword to proceed, then they weren't unnecessary for me. True the stats would look cleaner. Good point.
I assumed this was one of a kind rubber window that can mold around your hand and seal shut so no air is let through.
Galaer on 13/1/2022 at 16:49
@klatremus: You asked about definition of exploit. It's (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit) here. Using vanishing doors as example, bug itself isn't an exploit just yet. But if for example you need to enter somewhere and opening door doesn't alert anyone, but closing it leads to 1st alert, then vanishing door would help you and it would lead you to exploiting this game.
Also there is no rubber windows in Thief games.
klatremus on 9/2/2022 at 00:18
I am turning this situation over to the community to see if anyone can help. I am trying to ghost The Turning of the Leaves, and due to the whole bolt-cutter situation, this mission is stumping my progress. Cutting the lock is a ghost bust, so we need to get into the thief's hideout by somehow climbing this gate:
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/uploads/Turning.jpgI legitimately thought it would be possible, as there are several areas where it seems like you can get over the wall. Problem is there are so few stackable items in the mission, and it seems like Nicked lowered the ceiling height in those areas to prevent climbing over anyway. I also tried the "gentle clip" as Galaer called it, in order to clip through the gate, but I didn't get that to work either. If I could get through, then I was hoping the lock would be pickable in order to get back out, as the lockpicks are inside the hideout.
We haven't had one of these community strats developed for a while, so it would be cool if we could sort this pickle out. :thumb:
To arms, brothers!
Galaer on 13/2/2022 at 14:20
I play Broken Hammers now. At the beginning of this mission is fight between haunts and Hammerites, then Garrett lose health and teleports to real part of mission. At first I thought damage is scripted, but looks like there is haunt appearing behind Garrett. Around Garrett there is invisible wall preventing him to leave this place. That's why I thought this is a cutscene, but looks like you can move couple of steps and even jump. With jumping you can mantle over invisible wall and explore this area. Only this one haunt is enemy, other haunts are neutral to you. And only damage dealt by this one haunt teleports you to next area. So my question is: should I count this situation as a ghost bust or excuse that as part of cutscene?
2nd question: at the end of mission I get objective to defeat undead army, then there is battle between haunts and Hammerites. Hammerites will die, so I assist them with flashbomb. Thanks to that Hammerites kill haunts and I complete objective of defeating undead army. Is this assist will be considered ghost bust or not?
@klatremus: when I casually ghosted this mission I only managed to climb to roof in one of places, but due to low ceiling it was impossible to get on the other side of wall. As for gentle clip - I don't use it, because it's extremely powerful exploit that can destroy the whole ghosting challenge. You can clip through every door, gate portcullis, even in some circumstances through some walls. That's why even though exploits are allowed for regular ghost, I think this technique should be banned even for regular ghost.
Cigam on 13/2/2022 at 21:38
Galaer, on the first point, sounds to me like it is scripted so that the Haunt inevitably appears and is meant to damage you, as an unavoidable part of the story? For me, that a player can find a cheat way to avoid a scripted intended event, doesn't override the script aspect. Well unless if the author intended you to be able to escape. But from your description that seems unlikely?
On the second point, I think it's OK? You are tasked with defeating the army. You'd just have to manually attack them yourself if you didn't assist the Hammers. Though I suppose some might disagree if the precise wording was "kill the undead army". Because they might say only literal killing is excused, not stunning. But if the word is literally "defeat" well that doesn't say "direct killing only". Are you absolutely sure though, that the Hammers can never win on their own? If it was a question of reloading until they do, then no issue.
klatremus on 14/2/2022 at 20:14
Both of those situations seem borderline, Galaer. The first is tricky because yes it is a script, but so is the appearance of any enemy. Is the haunt spotting you, as in giving an alert? If so definitely a bust, but if it isnt and just dealing forced damage without getting alerted then id say no. Then it's the same as the poison in KotP, since you are stuck in a tiny place and the mission is designed to give you damage. Do you always take the same amount of damage?
As for the second situation yes the objective is saying kill the undead but if you use flash bombs you will alert them, which is a bust. Here I would reload and see if the Hammerites can kill them. Or maybe hope for only 1 haunt to survive, wait for it to settle, then kill it in one swipe.
Yes the gentle clip I dont like either. I wish they would release a newdark update and remove it. Just way too broken and immersion breaking. I think I'll call it a bust and just move on. Cant find a way past that gate.
Galaer on 5/3/2022 at 20:42
In Sun Within and Sun Without there are banners that count as loot, but in order to collect them you must first cut them. Does that still count as damage property?
Cigam on 6/3/2022 at 09:05
Galaer, perhaps you could argue that Garrett is allowed to damage his own property? If the entire banner disappears and gets transferred into your loot stash, then it's your loot that has been damaged? This is different than leaving behind a damaged banner that remains the property of the original owner?
But then no doubt it is simpler, as always, to just consider the game mechanics. At the point you slash the banner you are causing property damage to property. That it will in the future become a piece of loot you can pick up doesn't affect what is happening in the present? Other things haven't been excused because of future events and changes.
klatremus on 6/3/2022 at 18:06
Yeah I agree with Cigam's last paragraph. Future events dont impact the ruling. It's the same when alerting an enemy before you kill him, even if the objective excused the kill itself. Getting seen first is a bust, just the same as slashing the banner first is a bust.
klatremus on 25/3/2022 at 00:16
I would like to propose an amendment to rule #8 of the main ghost rules, basically to disallow the use of the "gentle clip" method. For those that don't know, it's where you block with your sword, then crouch-lean-jump in order to clip through solid structures. There are 3 main reasons why I think this should be disallowed:
1) It requires NewDark and newmantle must be set to ON.
2) It was never considered in the original rule set, simply because it didn't exist.
3) It potentially breaks every single mission, all you have to do it go around and try it on every wall and most likely you'll find an area that takes you past the problem. This makes it different from other engine exploits in that it doesn't require a specific circumstance, like enemies for nudging, or a thin layer to lean through a banner.
I feel it also invalidates so many of the old ghost reports that never had this method at the player's disposal. Personally, I would never use it, but it also leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that someone could just find a place to gentle clip past a problem that a ghoster has deemed unghostable.
Thoughts?
