Ghost rules discussion

Sneak on 6/1/2022 at 03:21

Quote Posted by klatremus

Since relocking of doors is required for Supreme, why was avoiding unnecessary lockpicks never required also? I mean, if you pick open a door and then can't relock it, isnt that just as bad? I mention this many times in my videos and notoriously try to minimize the number of locks picked, especially if they can't be relocked.

So Klatremus,
I am playing catch up after the Holidays and this is next on the list to finally finish. This might be lending new meaning to the term, “wait for it”! From your end it might look like a simple question with a quick answer. It isn't from my end but I get it. On your question up above I am zeroing in on the words "unnecessary" and "required"! There are multiple items so I will have to hit a few marks.

First off let me say that it is pretty obvious that you like to play that way. And if that is your personal play strategy and that limit works for you, if you like to always think of picking locks on some doors as unnecessary and you avoid them as evidence of passage or because there is no loot, or you like to leave doors as they were, or whatever your reason, that is certainly a choice. No conflict with what we designed that I would gripe about. The rules are pretty open on choices like that. So be as notorious as you like! But what you are asking is, "Isn't it as bad as not re-locking a lock that can be re-locked and why it wasn't required since some are unnecessary," as in shouldn't it be a Rule. And if it was Required that would mean everyone would have to play that way.

So right to it! Your question seems to suggest we left something out. We didn't! But why would we require it? And why should this be unnecessary for every player? Clayman and I discussed locks, and keys, and picking and doors for certain and quite a bit. Hence the words, "re-locked if they are re-lockable"! We even play tested. I went through missions focusing on this subject including the idea of returning keys. Did the First City Bank for sure as it was large and had quite a few keys for the time. In that bank is where I stumbled on holding a door open and key locking it so you could close it later and it would be locked. While avoiding lock picking some doors is a fine Strategy if you personally choose to do it that way, it would make a bad Required Rule for everyone. I can see quite a slippery slope there. I won't even attempt to go much into scenarios, but there could be a lot of them as there are a lot of Thief missions out there. Every mission is different. But here's a short one. Let's say there's three ways to the prize and two start through pickable doors you can't relock and one doesn't. Therefore the pickable doors are unnecessary. So there is only one way you can get to the prize. Hmmm! I can't imagine a Supreme Rule that would constrict a mission in such a way and limit players' pathway choices through it. Simply is not in the Heart of it. Confining that kind of pathway choice could render missions or areas of missions or even items such as keys in a mission to a paint by the numbers / cookie cutter affair.

So is it necessary, unnecessary or is it just a choice? Focus on the word choice. We created a Ghost mode that increased the Stealth Challenge. Never would have put limits on the choices of any paths you have through a mission to take that Challenge. With what we were creating if we had tried to narrow down and be controlling on the pathway options and enforce such limits with a Rule, much less force players to define and think about certain actions with a word like Unnecessary or something else, we would have edged into the obsessive Rule area. When a player enters a mission to Supreme Ghost, except for the Rules, and Objectives to frame it, the mission pathways are completely wide open to them. Complete freedom of choice on how they go about it, by design or at random. There is nothing unnecessary, it's all a choice. That extends to taking or pick-pocketing keys as well. You can decide if or how you want to do it; even which ones you want to take. Nothing is unnecessary, it's all choice. But the keys have to go back. Just go in with your skill, imagination, and perseverance and decide.

Here is something that will give you a glimpse of how we thought about it. When we were putting together Supreme we talked about boxes. You can tell by its reference in the rules. We could have made moving and stacking boxes illegal. But we didn't. Boxes can create access and pathways. Rope arrows and mantling can too. Doors, windows and vents, etc. etc. are access and pathways. We didn't put access or pathway boundaries in the rules.

Almost done here and this is what it all falls to. Just think of locks in general. “If you pick open a door and then can't re-lock it, isn't that just as bad as failing to re-lock one that can be re locked?" Well.....no it isn't. Failing to re-lock the one you can re-lock would be a player error. A picked lock you can't re-lock is a different thing. It comes down to this. The game will not let you re-lock all locks you unlock. Everyone who has ever played the game knows that. We knew that when we were creating Supreme. It just is. The Dark Mod does a better job of that but it isn't even 100 per cent. But if you could re-lock absolutely everything you unlocked the Rule would have been written more like: “If you unlock it you must re-lock it...Period!” I actually would have loved that. It wouldn't have removed a single pathway choice either. But you can't.

Let me touch on avoiding lock picking or even avoiding other things. I bet every player already does that to some degree. I sure do. I don't always pick every lock or take every key, or go everywhere. Sometimes I pick a path because I know it is more difficult and I want the challenge of trying to beat it. And I would take any key or pick any lock to get to it, even if there is an easier way. The choice is always there.

So if the unnecessary mindset is your personal strategic choice of how to think about it or go about Supreme mission game-play, superb, it fits right in Supreme Ghost as a free choice. It's wide open for that. If you want to tell people about it as a play style or strategy in case they might want to try it, it's a great idea. If you tell people they “must” do it that way...eh, nix that, they have the choice. As a Required Rule for every player; which means they can be Busted for not following it; it is not in the Spirit of the mode. You can think of picking doors as not leaving them as you found them, or as evidence of thieves passage, or that there's another way without picking, etc. Or since the game won't let you re-lock them you can also think; when I close that door I am re-locking it. The words “re-locked if they are re lockable” work, but sometimes just closing the door will have to do.

Now I'm off to Re- Supreme something I did a long time ago.

Adios for Now !

Sneak on 6/1/2022 at 03:35

Honestly the limited lock picking idea would be a fun board Challenge. Don’t know if you do that these days. You could get everyone together and say, Hey lets all Supreme this mission and see who can do it without picking open any doors or who can do it with picking the least doors or whatever options you like. :cool:

Galaer on 7/1/2022 at 20:25

Quote Posted by klatremus

For example, it means every run of Calendra's Legacy missions 2-3 are now voided, because of using Kharras Drahg's concealment ability to enhance Garrett's stealth power... It would mean both those missions are not Supreme ghostable

Wait, wait, wait. But Mission 3 is already impossible to supreme ghost even without Kharras Drahg's ability. Remember? For loot objective you need to get to shop for loot. The only way to get there within ghost mode is to get key from inside shop via window. But opening window will douse candle. In mission there is author's oversight, which allows player to frob key through closed window. This oversight many times happen in older mission where for example you can frob lever through locked door in order to open this locked door. This is clearly an exploit. It was discussed that you can only pick up items through solid items if there is a gap visible for Garrett's hand. This closed window has no gap, so frobbing key through it is a supreme bust.

klatremus on 9/1/2022 at 18:19

@Sneak: Thank you for your extensive answer. I really appreciate shedding some light on your and Clayman's thinking when developing the Supreme rules. It's funny because the reason I thought those doors should be avoided is because I though it was in the spirit of the Supreme mode, while you're arguing it's not. :p And yes you are right, I definitely choose to play avoiding those doors and I always try to minimize the lockpicking number in the end stats. I believe marbleman does something similar and he said he got the idea from watching my videos. I guess it's just another challenge to add to the already challenging rules, but it is nice to hear you still wanted the mode to open up player choices and not be too limiting.

@Galaer: I never considered that a Supreme bust or an engine exploit. I know some players do, but I have never agreed with the reasoning. The examples in the rules where engine exploitation is mentioned use "banner transmigration (as in Garret himself moving through banners in order to get to the other side), nudging, hooking of AI with boxes, and barrel polka dancing". These are elaborate techniques (that word is also used in the rules) involving complicated maneuvers, things that would never have been tested and is beyond what the engine seemingly is capable of. Taking objects through thin barriers is possible in some circumstances, mostly due to a limitation in the engine, the author's oversight, or an outright bug. Using that to your benefit I do not think fits with what the engine exploit rule was supposed to prevent. All you need to do it stand next to the item and take it, it doesn't require any "technique" at all. Plus if a 20 foot stack of scrolls, fruits, boxes and potions are allowed, it doesn't make sense to me that something as basic as this shouldn't be allowed also. If a bug exists in the mission that forces a Supreme bust, then we accept that and call it a bust; why then wouldn't we similarly use a bug like this to our benefit if it let's us avoid a bust? We are just using what the engine allows us to do, without bending it in any exploitative way.

Of course if you feel it is an exploit then you are free to skip it, but I explain my reasoning in my report in good conscience: "Fortunately I could grab the key through the glass as well, although it had to be done without extinguishing the light. Supreme rules prohibit extinguishing light sources. I guess you could argue taking an object through a window as an engine exploit. However, this extension of items' frobbable distance is normally an accepted part of the engine's functionality, especially when the barrier is a window, grate or banner. Taking items or hitting switches through solid walls or doors is different, though this really is up to each individual player. I had no problem with the aforementioned situation." I have skipped a few pieces of loot that can be taken through windows/doors in my videos mostly because I know some viewers would wreak havoc and tell me those are exploits, but I have never directly agreed with it. I remember taking those in my original ghost run from the late 2000s, but due to other players' reactions I chose to skip them this time. I specifically remember a window in the shack in Precious Cargo and a train door in T2X Shadowing the Enemy.

In Sneak's report (https://klatremus.org/sneak/Calendra%27s%20Legacy%20A%20Winter%27s%20Eve_wp.htm) here (scroll down to Friday, May 10th, 2002, 07:00 paragraph #3) he also writes taking the key through the window: "A pair of Rope arrows to get the Pawnshop key from outside the attic window." It is obvious that he, one of the makers of the mode, did not consider this to be an engine exploit either.

I should also say that the reason for my comment about Kharras Drahg was not to discuss whether A Winter's Eve was Supreme ghostable. It was to say the sword's ability shouldn't bust Supreme just because it partly replicated the ability of an invisibility potion.

Cigam on 10/1/2022 at 10:33

Sneak, interesting thoughts. I will admit that on a purely practical level, I think there ought to be as few rules as possible that require substantial fore-knowledge of the mission (as I have mentioned here a few times now.).

I think a rule about "unnecessary lockpicks" would come under that category. As you'd of course first have to know about the secret passage-opening button hidden behind bush #16, in order to know that it is not necessary to pick the kitchen door :)

But if someone does already know about the button, it is then entirely valid to avoid the kitchen door-pick if that's their preference, of course.

Galaer on 10/1/2022 at 18:42

@klatremus: So for you frobbing items through solid windows is completely different than frobbing them through solid doors and walls? How so? Wait, let me guess. It's because item behind window is visible, right? That would mean that frobbing items through glass is allowed. And glass doesn't appear only in windows. There are also glass doors and glass display cases. They are probably allowed too. Naive nobles locks behind them valuable items, but it's useless. Everyone knows that glass isn't any obstacle for Garrett. Hell, I'm surprised that you decided to break glass in Mines of Margoth. You should just let Garrett walk through it.

Jokes aside, so do you allow frobbing through every window? There is many kinds of windows. There is square hole in wall that acts as window, there is glass windows (some of them are opened and some aren't), there are windows with wooden shutters. What about wooden shutters? You can't see through them, but you can still pick items through them. And they are part of windows? Are they allowed too? There is also many kinds of windows: solid metal/wooden doors, glass doors or metal doors with glass window in it or even metal doors with bars (which means they also have gap in them). Are they all forbidden for you just because they are doors?

I don't think you understand this problem very well. It's not because of items extended frob range, it's rather because solid barriers by default don't block this frob range and they should. Check this (https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102463) thread. In post #3 is mentioned glass cabinet, so the problem is similar for glass windows. But if you want there is (https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63543) thread exactly about frobbing through windows. Like you see FM creators must go into extra length to block frobbing through solid barriers. In (https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102463&p=1376470&viewfull=1#post1376470) post #22 this bug is mentioned as Dromed bug. Since Dromed works on Dark Engine, this bug is also engine bug and FM creators must do extra tricks to prevent it.

Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.

As for stacking items, I will also add strafe jumping and bunny hopping as they were never intended. You say it's the same case with frobbing through solid barriers. But you are wrong. FM creators want to prevent player from frobbing through solid barriers. They want player to play the intended by them way and open first this barrier.

On the other hand, other mentioned previously techniques are actually used as intended stats to beat some FMs. In one of FMs you get infinite crate and you need to do super high stack to the top of the tower. In Up into the Bonehoard you also get infinite crate to help you to progress as the whole Bonehoard is upside down. In Heist at Hilbert's Highrise Hotel you need strafe jumping to get to certain gallery to complete optional objective. In Les Paolis you need strafe jumping to get to certain window to complete one of objectives (not many people figured out this intended by Cardia's strat, so author put speed potion to help players). In Tomb of St Tennor bunny hopping is used to get to easter egg.

In other words, there are more believable techniques that may be used as intended ways to beat missions. And frobbing through solid objects has negative opinion. It will never become intended strat.

As for Sneak's report, it was beginning of supreme ghosting. No idea how big was knowledge about exploits just 2 years after release of Thief 2. I have no idea if back then there was any rule preventing exploits or was it add later. Also supreme ghost community was small, so I don't think there was anyone to discuss this problem. So I'm guessing Sneak just overlooked it.

klatremus on 11/1/2022 at 00:51

Quote Posted by Galaer

Exploit = using unintended bug to your advantage. And you used unintended bug to your advantage, which means you used exploit. I have no idea why do you associate exploits with complicated techniques. If bug is simple, it doesn't require any special maneuver to exploit it. If bug is complicated to do, then you need complicated technique.

Where do you get this definition from? Not in the rules. The rules use the word "quirk" and does not say unintended anywhere. I associate it with complicated techniques because the only examples listed in the rules on this topic are complicated techniques; banner transmigration, nudging guards, blocking enemies with barrels...these are very complicated techniques. And Galaer, if banner transmigration is mentioned in the rules as an example (as in Garrett physically moving through banners in order to end up on the other side), why aren't taking objects through banners, windows or doors also mentioned? These certainly are much more common occurrences than being able to penetrate the banner.

This isn't about trying to find every single instance in missions that are unintended and disallowing them. If so, then mantling up to the top of rooftops in areas that the author didn't want you to go would also qualify. This is about stopping the player bending the engine in exploitative ways using techniques developed during the early years of ghosting. That's why the rule was made in the first place. If those techniques hadn't been developed or possible, I doubt the rule would even have existed. It seems like you are trying to accuse me of just excusing busts here. What I am doing is trying to figure out what the rule is covering, and I'm basing that on the examples laid out in the rules.

If I am mistaken and this is supposed to be covered by the rule, then I will adhere to that interpretation, but I will also say I think the original rules then were written sloppily.

Galaer on 11/1/2022 at 17:57

@klatremus: Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules. Does that mean it's not an exploit? But true, it's complicated technique. So let's try something simple. Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. So that's not exploit either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot. This also doesn't require any complicated technique and it's possible to do it without AI 1st alerting. So I guess that's also allowed for supreme. Look, klatremus, it's not rules purpose to cover every possible exploit and every possible situation for every rule. If this would be done, rules would grow 10 times and they would be hard to read.

Mantling is hard. I will use example of Les Paolis. I mantled on roof in Mission 1 and I was sure that this place is unintended to go, but soon I found loot there. So looks like this roof was actually intended. So it's hard to judge sometimes what's intended and what's not. Usually it is indicated by seeing the end of the world and lack of sound. Also new mantle can break really easily olddark missions and you can climb into unintended places. But what if these unintended places has sound and you don't see boundaries of the map. If you never played this mission in olddark, how can you know if mantling somewhere was intended or not? You can't, you would need to play these FMs in olddark, but it's not always possible, because olddark game can crash on modern computers. As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.

My problem with this situation is that you first mentioned that Garrett can reach places on the other side of barriers if there is a gap in this barrier. And i would say this is healthy limitation of this exploit. That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps. And then you say that frobbing stuff through every window is allowed, but not through doors and walls. First of all, I don't think every window is equal, I think your previous explanation would work on opened or broken windows, but not on closed windows. And why exactly closed windows are better than closed doors. I mean this bug works in absolutely the same way. Nothing changes. I find your exception as weird and illogical.

klatremus on 12/1/2022 at 00:14

Quote Posted by Galaer

Gentle clip also isn't mentioned in the rules.

I don't know what gentle clip is.

Quote Posted by Galaer

Using dead body as a cushion to not get fall damage isn't listed either. Or falling on other AI from very high spot.

These would be up to each player. Cushioning a fall could be seen as similar to landing on a ladder or landing in a mantle from high up, which is ok for ghost. Others might think falling on another AI is nudging it a bit, so that might be looked at as an exploit. I have never needed to use either of those methods in any ghost report as far as I can remember.

Quote Posted by Galaer

As for your way, I remember that you said that you know about shortcut avoiding fight in Keeper's Training, but you avoid that, because you want to play mission as intended as possible. But you had no problem with using unintended route to ghost 1st mission of T2X. So I never knew if you allow using new mantle to get into unintended places or not.

I would allow it always, I simply chose not to mantle the roof in Training Mission because it wasn't necessary to avoid a ghost bust. In T2X it was, so I climbed the roof to get the ghost success. I clearly stated that in the video and wrote in the report also that it could only be done in NewDark. I did the same thing in Return to the Cathedral to mantle over the gate without having to leave a crate behind, something that is only possible in newdark. It's certainly not an exploit either way. I never said reaching unintended roof was an exploit, I simply said if using your definition of "unintended" then a lot of things count as exploits, for example finding unintended areas to climb roofs. I have no problem with climbing roofs even heading to areas without sound or seeing outside the border of the map.

Quote Posted by Galaer

That's why you can grab stuff behind banner, because Garrett's hand goes behind banner. That's believable. But then you completely change the story and grab staff through solid glass window without any gaps.

I think I originally felt getting the key behind the window was ok because the window was unlocked and openable, so just like slipping hand behind banner I imagined Garrett slightly opening the window and getting the key. Sometimes banners too are flush with the wall and you'd have to pull it out almost open it in order to get the items behind. But even taking items through doors I'm not sure if the rule covers. Hopefully Sneak chimes in on this. I'd be glad to hear the original intention of the rule.

The exploit rule has always been the vaguest of all the rules. Only extreme examples are listed, so I always felt you'd have to do something quite extreme in order to break this rule. Some rules are simply up for interpretation, so then any player can report the method used and explain what he did, and rule it as success or not success. If done in good faith and open to the community, that is usually accepted.

Galaer on 12/1/2022 at 17:07

@klatremus: Gentle clip is technique to clip through solid barriers like doors or glass. Speedrunners use that technique a lot. You can also clip through walls that aren't part of any secret passage (it's used to beat faster Bafford's Manor). To do that you need to block with weapon, lean to the side and mantle into wall. Something like that. You mentioned that you managed to clip through glass in Thief 2 Demo to get to abandoned building, so I thought you are familiar with this technique.

About exploits: are you fine with making doors vanish in older missions. You need to use this door at least once and after some time if you use it again it will vanish if fully opened. This way you don't need to open and close doors all the time, especially useful when door automatically closes after couple of seconds. Or when door will start flying away, which is also possible. These also requires just frobbing and isn't listed in rules. So is that also not exploit for you?

As for Training Mission: by skipping fight you don't deal any damage, which looks better in the stats. Plus thanks to the skip you don't need to grab sword and bow, which means they become unnecessary pickups.

About window: if you open it even slightly, then wind is gonna extinguish candle. So what will happen if Garrett will slip his hand inside? Do you think that gap will only be where Garrett's hand is? No, because window isn't made from gum. This will obviously crate gap above and below Garrett's hand, so wind can extinguish candle again.