Galaer on 30/11/2021 at 15:10
The reason why I think eating food should also trigger chemical ghost is because of healing properties. You may argue that it doesn't help you avoiding AI, but it actually affects mental state of player. With healing allowed player don't need to be that careful like before. You can get hurt from falling or drowning or other thing and then just heal. Believe me, even if you excuse some damage, playing mission with low health is more tense. Every though you need to avoid getting hurt, perspective of dying immediately is more scary and it actually affects gameplay. Klatremus mentions poison in Hallucination, but I also supreme ghosted this mission and there was no need for me to get heal. It was tense, but possible to avoid healing, so I don't know why it's suddenly impossible for klatremus. That's why I think eating food, fruits and healing potions should trigger chemical run. This includes objects that heals you like healing fountains.
Breath potions and slow fall potions may affect ghosting though. Sometimes there are enemies underwater or you must hide while underwater from enemy standing near surface. Tension that appears when your air ends and you must quickly swim to surface, but you know that you may get spotted by enemy, is huge. Slow fall potions are the same. Instead of just falling straight down, you must find a way to carefully drop down and this slow movement may lead to you being exposed. Plus there are ghosting techniques developed to help you. You may just jump down and save yourself by mantling on something, you can drop on enemy or you can use body as a cushion.
Also about rule #7: food can be returned. If you are gonna eat it, then you can't return that. But unless objective states that, you don't need food for anything and you don't need food for anything as taking damage is forbidden for supreme ghost and really last resort for regular ghost. And since we are talking about food - what about Thief 1 food? Originally food had no chance to heal you. Newdark changed that. What about that?
Plus making feast at the middle of mission isn't very professional.
klatremus on 1/12/2021 at 00:40
I think the safest thing is sticking to the rules, and not add anything to it that isn't there. The rule mentions potions, in both the regular ghost and supreme rule sets. If it was meant to include just about anything you can put into your mouth, I think it would've said so. In regular ghost you are allowed to take damage; it's frowned upon, but it is allowed. If healing yourself in any way (food, healing fruits, etc) would also produce a chemical success and not just potions, then why doesn't it say so? The original ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things. The fact that it's not included to me means it wasn't healing that was the issue, instead they wanted to avoid or restrict the use of potions.
Galaer on 1/12/2021 at 07:12
Quote Posted by klatremus
The original ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things.
They could just forget about that as most of the time you heal with healing potions. They are the most efficient. Also in Escape you start with low health and no ghosters, including you, decided to heal themselves. This indicates for me that healing would trigger chemical run in their mind. For me eating and drinking should trigger chemical run.
Cigam on 1/12/2021 at 09:32
klatremus, thanks for the clarification.
Galaer, FWIW I can't think of any logical reason why healing that comes in a bottle should be forbidden / frowned upon, but not healing that comes in other forms.
I have argued previously that I think it is the effect that matters, not the package it comes in. hence why I would consider eating a breath-extending leaf the same as drinking a breath potion.
But then the rules explicitly refer only to potions.
So I guess for me eating healing fruits would be like eating the breath-leaf. Not technically against the rules as they are written, but down to the individual ghosdt to avoid them if they feell they violate the spirit of wat a ghost ought to do.
But IF there was to be some new clarification then my own personal preference would be to first go by the effects of the consumable. And THEN to not call ANY healing a chemical assist. As I think "chemical assist"s should only be about artificial stat buff increases. I appreciate what you say about low health making things tenser, but your own feelings of tension are a different kind of thing than having some sort of in-game artificially enhanced guard-avoiding ability.
Starker on 1/12/2021 at 12:28
My perspective on this might be a bit different, since I don't follow the so-called official rules and my playstyle has a completely different approach to this, but I've always considered the no potions rule to be unnecessarily arbitrary. I'd personally phrase it more like "no ability-enhancing effects from items and interactable objects are allowed / ability-enhancing effects from items and interactable objects are frowned upon" with examples being stat-enhancing effects (speed boost, jump height increase, weight decrease, longer breath) and stealth-enhancing effects (invisibility, sound dampening).
Galaer on 1/12/2021 at 14:24
Quote Posted by Cigam
Galaer, FWIW I can't think of any logical reason why healing that comes in a bottle should be forbidden / frowned upon, but not healing that comes in other forms.
I'm gonna answer to you by Hallucinations example. In this FM you have poison damage. It forces you to move quickly through mission. But because of supreme ghost rules you also must be very careful to avoid any 1st alerts. This is very interesting challenge, completely different than what is present in other missions. That's why I feel bad when someone wants to allow healing and completely trivialize this problem.
Starker on 1/12/2021 at 14:35
I haven't played that mission, but wouldn't you fail supreme ghost anyway because of the no damage rule?
Galaer on 1/12/2021 at 15:25
Quote Posted by Starker
I haven't played that mission, but wouldn't you fail supreme ghost anyway because of the no damage rule?
I actually asked this question 2 years ago when I was supreme ghosting this mission and result of discussion was allowing poison damage as this damage isn't caused by player. That's also when I stated that I'm gonna supreme ghost this mission without healing and there was absolutely no one mentioning that healing should be allowed.
Cigam on 1/12/2021 at 16:46
Galaer, I am not sure that The Rules should be concerning themselves with non-ghosting issues. Whether or not healing yourself buys you time and makes you feel less pressure as you go about avoiding alerts, is not for The Rules to worry about IMO.
The only issue is whether healing yourself is ghost-like. Either it is or it isn't. Personally I think it is irrelevant to ghosting, whether you drink or eat it.
But if you think it is something to be frowned upon, then it seems to me that you ought to frown upon both eating and drinking the healing, not just the drinking of it.
Sneak on 18/12/2021 at 22:42
Quote:
The original Ghosters that made the rules certainly knew about those things.
I have to pop in here as I am trying to swallow this discussion directly above. And in a smaller way it reminds me of things from way back where wording was trying to be an issue. Looks to me like this is being over thought.
Let me ask it this way. What is the difference between a Health Potion, a Healing Fruit, a Piece of Food that Heals you, a Leaf of some kind that heals you, or anything else in these games that any can heal you? I will just give you the answer. The answer is Nothing ! There is no difference. There is no difference in what they do, they restore your health. I guess you can argue that some heal 1 point each and some heal more points with each dose. But if you throw that at me it is just going to bounce off. Way back everyone knew what it meant in the Rules. But that was a while ago. Can't imagine that anyone thought back then that the Potion wording would one day confuse things. But it looks like it has. When a Health Potion is mentioned in the Rules, suffice it to mean anything that restores or adds to your your health. That is the logic of it. I can remedy wording issues in The Ghost Rules to make it clear what was meant pretty easily with only a few words, especially Supreme Ghost. :cool:
As far as Health Damage in Ghost Mode being allowed but Frowned upon, Ya know, once upon a time we were pretty green at this Ghost stuff. It was all new. Way back when, some people thought allowing some health damage was needed. But over time everyone who Ghosted; just like you guys now; got REAL good at it. And there was a pretty big crew at The Eidos Thief Forum back then. Knowing how good everyone ultimately got at Ghost I don't think Health Damage would have been even brought up. Best not to be Frowned upon and take any damage even though it's allowed! Kind of betting you don't anyway. :D
Health Potions are NOT Chemistry. Chemistry enhances your abilities. (
I can see it coming. Is Holy Water Chemistry. And is Holy Water a Potion? ;)
Have been trying to filter through this long thread to be up on things. Haven't gotten it all yet. Wonder if I can? But I can see there will be some things that should be squared away wording wise in the Rules so they are clear.