klatremus on 5/9/2021 at 03:05
I actually thought about that too. I dont think that is the same, because you aren't manipulating the light source, only the environment. However, you cant stack boxes on patrol paths or directly in view of enemies for Supreme, so that you still have to abide by. Due to that I'm not sure how useful this trick would be. Opening doors to block light sounds ok to me, bc even in Thief you can use doors to block the view of enemies.
Cigam on 5/9/2021 at 16:35
Klatremus, hope you don't mind me commenting here re your Thief 2X - Mission 8 video. In it you mention that once the secret door into the Hammer Temple closes behind you, you couldn't find anyway to open it back up again. It's been a while but I'm sure I used to be able to bash it back open with my sword. Not sure if that counts as property damage or not, as I am not sure if it is technically locked when it closes, and you can just frob it open from the other side without keys. So this might be more like pushing a door open with extra force rather than busting a lock?
Well Nothing major here, and your method might be preferrable from a noise perspective. Just something that someone else might possibly find interesting if the door has already closed (and there isn't some bust I am forgetting here). There are also definately other such one-way openable doors, including in T2X, that can be bashed open from the other way.
vincentlancon on 6/9/2021 at 01:58
Quote Posted by Galaer
@klatremus: I guess you never played mission with eternal darkness (shadow is pitch black no matter of gamma settings and you don't even see where walls are). In this kind of missions you just need to take lantern with you as completing mission blindly is nearly impossible. Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you. Though I didn't like this mission, it has really good atmosphere, it's creative and has some really creepy undead. Plus it creates a lot of new supreme ghost problems worth discussing. It's the must for you to play.
Also I disagree that light switches comparison is good. When moving lanterns you don't remove light source. When using light switches you remove light source. It's not the same thing. Plus taking lantern with you makes you more visible.
" Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you." ... Heartcliff is a masterpiece in my opinion and yes you can quite easily get through without the lantern if you know the path.... Klatremus, this is also one you need to play... it may result in a 40 hour video though... heh
Galaer on 11/9/2021 at 09:36
I wanted to ask about perfect thief rule in regards of Whistling of Gears. In this mission you can complete max loot without any ghost bust, but there is a way to generate more loot, which increase max loot, by killing fire mage. Killing him is a ghost bust though, so it must be avoided. Why am I asking about this? Well, perfect thief rule isn't defined by max loot stat, but rather by all available loot in mission. Of course max loot is reliable in most of the missions, but sometimes due to oversight of FM creator, loot has been put outside of map or it becomes unfrobbable. In these situations these loot pieces don't count to perfect thief and the real max loot stat is lower. But what about generating new loot piece? This is also available loot in the mission and also it appears rarely, but it appears. This means that true max loot stat is actually bigger than max loot stat you are starting with. And despite getting max loot, but skipping these troublesome newly generated loot pieces, shouldn't it count to failing perfect thief?
Cigam on 11/9/2021 at 15:36
Galaer, perhaps loot for Perfect could be treated like objectives for Supreme? In the sense that if you either do not know about the fact that a new objective / loot piece can be triggered, or you do know about this but deliberately avoid triggering it, then it is not a bust?
Only the obtainable objectives / loot pieces already there in the objectives list / world are mandatory?
Otherwise you have the familiar problem of people having to spend hours combing over and studying missions, in order to check if they are complying with a rule.
Galaer on 11/9/2021 at 17:23
Quote Posted by Cigam
Galaer, perhaps loot for Perfect could be treated like objectives for Supreme? In the sense that if you either do not know about the fact that a new objective / loot piece can be triggered, or you do know about this but deliberately avoid triggering it, then it is not a bust?
Only the obtainable objectives / loot pieces already there in the objectives list / world are mandatory?
Otherwise you have the familiar problem of people having to spend hours combing over and studying missions, in order to check if they are complying with a rule.
Not necessarily. You can always ask on forum if there is any loot that is generated. For Whistling of Gears I had no problem to find easter egg on my first casual run and I think if player is searching for loot, he will eventually find it. Or read about it on forum. In case of TTGM 4 there is one nugget that is generated. It doesn't bust any ghost mode. I noticed that when I compared starting max loot with my end max loot stat. So I asked on forum about it. In Working the Mines loot objective is 10 times bigger than max loot available at the start of mission, so you are forced to generate more loot in order to finish this mission. But you can generate way more loot than loot objective states. Since right now perfect thief rule states to get
all available loot in the mission instead of getting max loot, I would say that skipping these pieces of loot especially if you know about them, should count as perfect thief failed.
marbleman on 11/9/2021 at 18:49
The player can always ask about hidden objectives too; you don't make a very convincing point there.
Also, the changes you propose here are too major. The last few amendments were just that -- amendments, clarifications. Nobody ever changed any rules outright, and I don't think anyone will.
Galaer on 11/9/2021 at 18:55
Quote Posted by marbleman
The player can always ask about hidden objectives too; you don't make a very convincing point there.
Also, the changes you propose here are too major. The last few amendments were just that -- amendments, clarifications. Nobody ever changed any rules outright, and I don't think anyone will.
But I don't propose any change. This is about how you interpret this rule. Also have in mind that this is rare enough situation that it doesn't create huge problem with all missions. It's only about these 3 or 4 missions that generate new loot. And you are correct - there is no rule preventing asking on forum about any hidden objectives.
Cigam on 11/9/2021 at 19:05
But I would point out that Not all FMs are well known or well documented. So I don't think that a lack of people commenting on this or any other forum to say that they know about some specific FM's hidden objective or hidden loot trigger proves anything.
If however the loot stat says there is more loot than what you have collected, that is a different story. That is I think the equivalent of having unticked objectives in Supreme.
Unless if I have misread, that isn't the case with your specific FM? The max loot only changes IF you trigger an optional event? If so, then I would make the arguments above.
klatremus on 11/9/2021 at 19:11
All available loot is what is available at the current time, not including what could get added from secrets, scripts, Easter eggs or contracts from loadout store. So extra loot is just that, extra, that can be triggered by choice, but not triggering it will not bust the Perfect status.