marbleman on 4/9/2021 at 09:35
@klatremus: Yeah I'm with you on this one. It immediately struck me as logical not to allow moving these lights. I then thought, "What if the candle is later placed back where it was?" but even in this case it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Supreme. It also reminded me that using light switches is not allowed to turn off lights even if you turn them back on later, and this situation seems quite similar.
klatremus on 4/9/2021 at 14:45
@Galaer: True, I forgot about lanterns, though i would never use them for Supreme for the reasons I stated above. I don't see how that would ever be necessary in Thief either. I do not understand your logic of saying "since the game gives you the possibility, it should be allowed". The game gives you the possibility to kill people also...
@marbleman: Light switches is a good comparison yes, which further solidifies my opinion.
Galaer on 4/9/2021 at 17:43
@klatremus: I guess you never played mission with eternal darkness (shadow is pitch black no matter of gamma settings and you don't even see where walls are). In this kind of missions you just need to take lantern with you as completing mission blindly is nearly impossible. Try supreme ghosting Heartcliff Islands without taking lantern with you. Though I didn't like this mission, it has really good atmosphere, it's creative and has some really creepy undead. Plus it creates a lot of new supreme ghost problems worth discussing. It's the must for you to play.
Also I disagree that light switches comparison is good. When moving lanterns you don't remove light source. When using light switches you remove light source. It's not the same thing. Plus taking lantern with you makes you more visible.
klatremus on 4/9/2021 at 19:12
I have not played that mission no, nor any other mission where I needed light source to continue or ghost.
But when you move a light from one room to another, you are removing the light source from the room you are in though. Sure you're not putting out the light, but it's no longer a light source in the original room. If someone walks into the room, to them there's no difference if the light is put out or if it's still lit but on the other end of the mansion.
The point of that rule is so that you cant walk through that room and be more concealed. If you move the light first, it has exactly the same effect as putting it out.
Galaer on 4/9/2021 at 20:15
@klatremus: a lot of lanterns in Thief FMs is placed in rooms never visited by AI, so when taking this light source you aren't using it to your advantage of easier sneaking through rooms.
klatremus on 4/9/2021 at 20:25
But we are not discussing only those lanterns, Galaer. We are talking about whether its allowed to move any light source to a different part of the map. The rule doesn't refer to only some lights, it's all or none.
That's why for Supreme we decided not to allow taking any loot items that emit light. It doesn't matter if AI walk through the room or not.
marbleman on 4/9/2021 at 20:27
If there are movable light sources in Thief, it makes more sense to amend the main ruleset rather than the TDM addendum.
klatremus on 4/9/2021 at 20:28
Quote Posted by marbleman
If there are movable light sources in Thief, it makes more sense to amend the main ruleset rather than the TDM addendum.
I agree
marbleman on 4/9/2021 at 23:17
One more question: since objects block lights in TDM, is blocking off lanterns with boxes a bust? Keep in mind, that doors block lights too, so if it is, you wouldn't be able to use most doors too.
Cigam on 5/9/2021 at 02:45
Marbleman, that doesn't sound like the removing or moving of a light source per se.
If you wanted to forbid it you'd have to call it something like 'contriving a fabrricated barrier around a light source to achieve the same effect as removing it'.