Cigam on 16/6/2021 at 17:14
Muting the volume or switching your monitor off certainly affects your ability to play the game, but this has no impact on any internal gameworld mechanics or elements, and how intrinsically difficult they are. Their difficulty remains at the same internal programmed level. I mean, lockpicks don't care what the gamma is, and Benny will still hear you on tiles no matter what the master volume is set at.
I think the distinction between in-gameworld difficulty settings, and other types of settings is pretty clear. Even if some of the latter can be used to make your ability to interact with the game lessen.
As for the FMs, did the objectives explicitly tell you to enter into combat?
Galaer on 16/6/2021 at 19:03
With lowered gamma and muted sound you must be more perceptive and look around more often than when you play normally. I actually tried to do Lord Bafford Manor that way. After conversation in basement I went behind patroller going to storage, but somehow went past him without noticing it and somehow he appeared behind me. Since it was so damn hard I had no idea where to escape and he just killed me. So playing that way is much harder than changing Lockpicks and Combat settings.
As for objectives - they usually mention to kill someone. I never seen any objective that would explicitly said to fight someone head on.
klatremus on 16/6/2021 at 20:00
I agree with Galaer's points here. The only settings that would impact the core rules of ghosting would be those affecting guards' ability to spot you. Combat is a moot point as once you start fighting head on, you're already busted. Lockpicking is not mentioned in ghost rules, and for Supreme its specifically mentioned to not be a bust. Even if kill objective is present, getting spotted by the enemy is a bust so it has to be a one hit. I've never seen a kill objective written to specify fighting someone for a duration of time. But then I think Galaer has played many more missions than I have so he would know better.
Cigam on 16/6/2021 at 21:04
But surely The core rules of ghosting allow for anything an objective explicitly requires you to do. So in principle if you can set a task in an objective to N/H/E shouldn't it be set to E?
Whether any real-world FMs have as yet ever explicitly required a lockpicking, or a combat, shouldn't affect discussions of the ghosting principles of such situations.
Plus longer and harder lockpicking can certainly increase the challenge for a ghost.
But no doubt it is probably just as valid to decide that the rule re Expert difficulty was only interested in maxing sneak difficulty to its highest level. Ergo only options related to this are of concern.
Galaer on 17/6/2021 at 06:01
The thing is that these settings will just increase time with using them. I'm really terrible at combat, so harder combat would mean for me to reload game 50 more times than with easier combat. That's not very interesting. As for lockpicking - nobody really likes long lockpicking. Now imagine situation where there is chest to unlock with lockpicks and there is also AI walking all around the room and never stopping. This means you must walk behind him, picklock chest for short time and then quickly run to him and repeat this process. With short lockpicking it may take 3 rounds, with long - 10. The problem is the same for all difficulties of lockpicking. The only difference is how long you will spend unlocking this chest.
marbleman on 17/6/2021 at 10:18
So, pickpocketing...
Should those remarks be excused? I'd say yes because any mission with pickpockets -- and that often includes keys needed for progression -- would automatically be impossible to Supreme.
Also I kind of already claimed Supreme success in Full Moon Fever where I had to pick one pocket. :cheeky:
klatremus on 17/6/2021 at 16:34
@Cigam: Your last paragraph captures my opinion.
@marbleman: Yes it sounds more like a gameplay script than an alert, so I'd excuse those. If not, you totally remove pickpocketing from the game, and I'd say that's a core element in ghosting. Of course, if a guard gives a regular first alert as you pickpocket him because he sees you doing it, it is still a bust...but I assume you already knew that.
Galaer on 18/6/2021 at 16:04
I would like to ask when exactly guards sensitivity setting can be changed? Is it only at the beginning of the mission or anytime you want? I'm asking because I'm curious if low level of this setting would allow some exploits that for T1/T2 regular ghost are allowed (like nudging). While I agree this setting should be at the max level, I think that it should be allowed to lower this setting as the last resort for regular ghost. But it also should be noted.
marbleman on 19/6/2021 at 13:19
I might write that TDM addendum soon, but I'm still encountering things worth considering.
Here's, for example, another question. While not all TDM missions have loadout screens, when you do have this option, you can not only buy equipment but also drop what you have. You can theoretically discard all your weapons and equimpent this way. Should it be necessary for Supreme to drop everything you don't need?
I also want to circle back to this post: (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487&page=5&p=2435384&viewfull=1#post2435384)
We've discussed scripted alerts upon AIs being pickpocketed, but Bienie also mentioned such responses to stolen loot and open doors. According to the post, none of these are counted as alerts in mission stats. I would excuse AIs reacting to missing loot for Supreme, but it feels to me like AIs reacting to open doors should be treated as a bust. Thoughts?
Finally, I don't know if there's any point in including this into the addendum (this information is available on any stat screen), but AI alerts in TDM are more nuanced than in Thief. There are five types of them, and the game does give you an actual stealth score. The lower the score, the better job you did at being undetected. Alert 1 (AI mumbles but continues doing what they're doing) is the only one that doesn't contributes to stealth score. Additionally, this only concerns alerts. Blackjacking someone doesn't contribute to stealth score either.
klatremus on 19/6/2021 at 15:40
I dont think so. I dont see how that follows the Supreme spirit. They were your items to begin with anyway, so it's not like they're unnecessary pickups. Plus if you end up needing them but dropped them, then you would have to get them somewhere else.
@Galaer: I think for Supreme the sensitivity should be to the maximum level. Not sure about regular Ghost, but I think the same, since the original rules specify highest difficulty.
