Cigam on 8/3/2021 at 19:34
Just thought of a wrinkle (it never ends).
The wrinkle is in how you classify "avoidable" and "unavoidable", and whether engine exploit avoidances count. You mentioned the silent alarm in RttC. But you can I believe avoid tripping that if you use some rope-jumping technique to nab the Eye? You can also have theoretical possibilities of being able to avoid triggering scripts if you frob a quest item through a barrier. You can after all avoid triggering the alarm in LotP by illicitly frobbing the plans through the safe door without opening it.
So either you count "avoidable via engine exploits" as "avoidable", or there would need to be a further qualification. Something like "intentionly unavoidable direct consequences" or "direct consequences intended to be unavoidable" are excused"?
Or there again maybe we could just leave it. As I think most people would interpret the "unavoidable" sentiment as being about non-cheat methods of avoidance anyway :)
klatremus on 8/3/2021 at 21:26
I think you discussed yourself into a nice conclusion at the end there. Exploitations are exceptional circumstances and anomalies. I think the rules should focus on normal gameplay. A player should try what is within his means and ability to avoid the bust, but if it doesn't come intuitively from gameplay and you have to penetrate walls three floors away, then nobody would be expected to avoid the bust. Ghosters are normally familiar with well known exploits, like the plans in LotP. But even that one I'm not sure is a bust, as it's a painting isnt it? Paintings and banners aren't solid barriers like doors and walls. You could almost imagine Garrett getting his hands in there. But that's a different discussion.
Cigam on 9/3/2021 at 13:28
Fair enough! But another potential wrinkle. What do we do about the cases where a guard or guards are scripted to alert the moment you complete a mandatory objective? I believe Cavador's bodyguards are set to automatically do this the moment you KO him, even if far away. Plus of course there is the "silent alarm" in RttC.
So, are these alerts classified as 'unavoidable direct consequences of completing a mandatory objective', or are they avoidable because you could have KOed/dispatched such AI ahead of time. Like preventing the Mystic Soul trap?
klatremus on 9/3/2021 at 15:30
If its obvious that its scripted, then that would be excused. But if not, unless you can verify in dromed or from other players on the forum, they should be treated as busts. Cavadors guards are not scripted to alert, so that would be a bust. You have to get them separated somehow in order to avoid that. Same with taking the eye. The enemies are actually not scripted to alert, just to wake up/start patrolling. See (
https://youtu.be/KvzRQtdiRdQ) here at 29:55. I managed to get it without anyone alerting. Even the zombies didn't start patrolling, they're just standing there.
Cigam on 9/3/2021 at 19:17
Ah forgot scripted events (such as AI changes) for mandatory goals already have their excused status, if you can't stop the script triggering in and of itself.
Between that and other kinds of direct consequences, such as mechanical traps springing, alarms sounding and glowy things going out, everything should be covered more or less.
klatremus on 20/3/2021 at 21:17
Over the last few weeks, Peter Smith and I have taken the topics discussed in this thread during recent months and formulated several clarifications to both the normal Ghost rules as well as the Supreme rules. Below is an outline of the rules that will be modified, with the additions/changes in red. Peter and myself are both in agreement with this wording. We wanted to let the community know before the changes are officially released. This is not meant to trigger controversial discussion, but rather give people a chance to take a look at the changes and let us know of major objections or mistakes. Like I mentioned, these are all topics that have been thoroughly discussed in this thread before. We'd also like to thank all those that posted comments regarding these rules. The ghosting community is a positive and constructive place to partake in wholesome discussion, and its participants are all to be commended for that.
So here goes...
Normal Ghost:
11. Any mission objective that explicitly requires that one of the above rules be broken, such as "Kill the Haunts," is OK to complete and does not bust the ghost so long as no AI are alerted in the process. Unavoidable consequences triggered at the same time as completing a required objective are also excused, but must be reported.
12. AI behaviors caused by programmed scripts and not caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed, but should be verified by the ghosting community before a success can be claimed. An example is the archer fight in Life of the Party.
B. Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules
1. Mission Objectives
Any mission objective that explicitly demands that the player break one of the rules above is OK to complete and does not bust the ghost. Examples of such an objective are:
"Kill the bad guy."
"Kill all the Haunts" (in Return to the Cathedral)
"Kidnap Cavador" (he must be KO'ed to be picked up)
So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK. It is not acceptable, however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective. For example, it is not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective, such as stealing something.
Events that happen at exactly the same time as the objective being completed, but not resulting in Garrett being seen or heard, are ok. Such events are usually caused by programmed scripts connected to the objective (see #6), but not always. Examples could be a loud trap springing, an alarm sounding, or an object breaking as a direct result of completing the objective. If such events occur before or after the objective, and are caused by Garrett, they are not excused. If unsure, the player should always refer to the ghosting community for verification before claiming a success.
3. Property damage
"No property damage" means no visible damage. Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before. For example, if you drop a crate, it makes a noise indicative of damage. This is allowed until the crate actually breaks. The bashing of a door causes visible damage only when the door opens (the lock is broken). Items that disappear from inventory or when used do not count as destroyed. “Property” is defined as something that is fabricated by humans or other intelligent creatures (boards, glass, doors, machines, banners, etc). Natural objects like foliage, boulders, icicles, cobwebs, etc. are not considered property and would not bust ghost.
Supreme Ghost:
5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.
14. As with normal Ghost, Explicit Objectives to break a rule (such as to kill someone) prevail over the rules, but it is not permitted to break a secondary rule that seems necessary to meet an objective.
Unavoidable consequences triggered at the same time as completing a required objective, as long as it doesn't alert any enemies, are excused, but must be reported. For example: If there is an objective to take an item that emits light, when you take the item, the light is automatically extinguished. This is normally not allowed for Supreme, but since removing the light source is an instant and unavoidable consequence, it is excused.
15. Programmed scripts that incur a bust, like for normal Ghost, are also allowed for Supreme, but should be verified by the ghosting community before a success can be claimed. However, if such scripts can be avoided without any busts, they should.
smithpd on 20/3/2021 at 22:02
I agree with all the changes proposed above by klatremus.
We spent a lot of time discussing exceptions due to programmed scripts. Script exceptions have been in the ghosting rules for 20 years. We agree that there is a valid distinction between busts that are caused by actions of the player, i.e. being seen or heard, and unavoidable situations csused by programming.
Galaer on 20/3/2021 at 22:16
Question about unavoidable consequence: does that mean that every alert caused by completing objective will be excused? For example: I have objective to kill somebody, but in order to not be seen by him is by shooting him with broadhead arrow or using sword. It's loud and nearby enemies will hear that. But there is no other option. Another example: I have objective to shoot fire arrows into explosives, but it's very loud and again explosions will be heard by enemies. Is these alerts really excused?
smithpd on 20/3/2021 at 22:27
This clause in the interpretations section of the Normal Ghost rules should cover it:
''So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK."
In other words, subsequent alerts caused by the exception, as you describe, are a bust. Do you read it that way?
klatremus on 20/3/2021 at 22:58
Precisely. The paragraph directly after the one you referenced, Peter, also says: "Events that happen at exactly the same time as the objective being completed, but not a result of Garrett being seen or heard, are ok."
Those events are referring to other busts that would not alert enemies, for example property damage or damage inflicted directly to Garrett. Getting seen or heard has always been at the core of the rules, so only explicit statements in the objectives to alert somebody or scripts that alert enemies (as in not caused by Garrett) are excused.
When I think about it, the "not a result of Garrett being seen or heard" part is not stated in the Supreme rules, only in the normal Ghost rules. Should it perhaps also be added there, Peter?