Galaer on 21/2/2021 at 08:32
I'm sorry, klatremus, but you just said "Unless it is explicitly stated in the objectives, it can't be excused". What did you mean if not objective screen? I think everyone (even you) think about it as objectives from objective screen. So why do you think differently for this one mission? I mean lack of objectives is nothing new. It appears in couple of missions. But is it really all right to create new objectives for your own convenience?
Also smithpd mentioned: "I think that it is not advisable to create an endless set of exceptions. I regret many of the exceptions that we allowed in the past because they are cause of much discussion and desire for even more exceptions". And to that you said: "if we start making exceptions, then other players will see that and start asking for other exceptions". You made 1 exception from this rule, so you shouldn't be surprised that other ghosters also asks for exceptions. And the only real difference is the scale of this exception. I asked for just 1 situation, you made much bigger exception based on every readable in the mission. And while doing most of instruction doesn't lead to any bust, there is couple of them that create ghost busts. And also your excuse is worse, because actions you make in this mission are absolutely optional. So you can avoid ghost busts, but still you decided to excuse them and violate this rule. While in my situation - I don't have any choice, it's forced ghost bust.
Also this:"Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those". If that's what you mean, then I'm sorry, ghost's request that doesn't appear in objective screen is also an objective by this definition.
And this pretty much explains what you need to do: "And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even". In this couple of missions without objectives I could do that, sometimes I actually did that when there is no loot. But usually I try to get as much loot as possible within ghosting rules, return to start and use cheat to skip mission (no idea if there is one in TDM). But that's literally what you needed to do. And there is really no shame in doing that.
klatremus on 21/2/2021 at 15:25
I appreciate your input Galaer, but I'm not gonna continue discussing this. I will just keep repeating my previous arguments. You can watch my video or read my report for my justifications. I don't think it's even comparable to any other "normal" mission. Look forward to your report on Scarlet Cascabel. It's one of the first missions on my list after T2 and T2X.
Galaer on 21/2/2021 at 15:55
I see, don't worry I will call my situation a ghost bust. But to be honest, I wonder what other ghosters say about your exception. Video about this Training mission can be found (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v1sz6VQydE) here.
klatremus on 21/2/2021 at 17:40
Thank you for the link. Yes I always encourage viewers, and especially other ghosters, to comment on my videos or reports. In this mission especially, I asked for feedback on ghosting since it was the first video I had done on the Dark Mod, and I was unsure on how to implement some of the rules. Nobody so far (7 years later) has commented on my choice in treating the readables and pop-ups as objectives.
klatremus on 8/3/2021 at 05:50
Question: If an item that is a mandatory objective is also a light source, does it automatically bust Supreme taking it?
Supreme rule #14 says: As with normal Ghost, Explicit Objectives to break a rule (such as to kill someone) prevail over the rules, but it is not permitted to break a secondary rule that seems necessary to meet an objective.
To me the rule is talking about secondary rules broken before you obtain the objective, ones that might seem necessary in order to reach it, not those that inevitably occur as a result of taking it. I'd compare this to the alarm in Undercover, where it should be a bust in and of itself, but since it is directly linked to the taking of an objective, you are ok.
I know we have ruled that loot items that emit light are busts, but there you can skip them and still finish the mission (unless the loot objective requires 100%).
Thoughts?
marbleman on 8/3/2021 at 09:54
I don't remember if I encountered items like this in any of my Supreme runs, but I would have treated them as busts. I see the logic of excusing such busts similar to taking the Undercover talisman, but we have to think of all possible options: [the effects] that inevitably occur as a result of taking [the item], do they refer to removing lights/magical seals only or to anything? What if taking an objective item sets off an explosion, alerting/killing a few people? Would that be excused too?
Cigam on 8/3/2021 at 10:12
I think I'd have called the Undercover alarm a bust as there is no explicit directive to sound an alarm or put Hammers into alert mode.
If you excuse direct consequences, you get into the murky waters of what to do about avoidable direct consequences.
For example, the safe plans in LotP. The alarm is a direct consequence, but it is an avoidable one. So does it bust?
But anyway, if unavoidable direct consequences have already been accepted as excusable, then no reason why taking the mandatory glowing quest item should not be also.
klatremus on 8/3/2021 at 16:15
@marbleman: T2X Down Among Dead Men has an elemental crystal that emits lights. It's in a closed coffin in a locked tomb with no enemies, but it's a required objective.
@Cigam: I really like your expression unavoidable direct consequences. I have long hoped to be able to flesh out this rule both for ghost and Supreme. It seems very cumbersome to have to come to a community consensus for each and every case. There's obviously a reason the alarm in Undercover or silent alarm in Return to the Cathedral when taking the eye are excused.
There are actually several comparative situations in Down Among Deas Men that can be used here. There's another objective of burning Mausoleus' remains. When you do this, all the undead explode and that alerts 2 fire elementals. However, this would be a bust as its optional and can be avoided by not reading the book that triggers it. There are also several loot items in the mission that emits light, but those can easily be avoided. Furthermore, there is a scripted event that also causes explosion that alerts zombies. But that script can be avoided, so it would in my opinion be a bust to trigger it. Unavoidable scripts or direct consequences of taking or completing an objective should be excused, I think.
The reason this works is because it is tied to objectives, so it's easy to control. The word 'unavoidable' is good because it omits objectives that have alternate ways of being completed. I'm thinking especially of the Mystic Soul in Bonehoard. There you can place a skull on pedestal to avoid a trap, but then you can't return the skull and that busts Supreme. This would not be a direct consequence of taking the objective, so it's a bust. Plus the trap can't be excused because its avoidable. I like it.
Cigam on 8/3/2021 at 18:23
klatremus, I'm glad you liked my choice of words!
Just to clarify though, are you suggesting that triggering the Mystic Soul's associated trap ISN'T excused because it is avoidable? The fact that you can only avoid it by busting another rule is not taken into consideration?
If so then that is certainly clear, and would be in keeping with the notions that you can't just KO a guard because there is no other way to get to the objective behind him without him seeing you.
klatremus on 8/3/2021 at 18:27
That is exactly what I'm saying. The alternative way incurs another bust, but that is not excused because it doesn't result directly from an objective. That is the way the rule has to be treated if it is to be consistent.