klatremus on 18/2/2021 at 23:40
Are your objectives diruecting you to aid the ghost or follow its directions? If so, its excused. Otherwise no.
Cigam on 19/2/2021 at 07:30
Just wondering, but would people call the following a "clarification" to the rules, or cross the line into being a "change"? It wouldn't however invalidate old supreme runs either way.
I am talking about relaxing the rule on not dropping crates on an AI patrol route, so it would be OK as long as the AI isn't near for the duration that it is there.
This is harking back to a previous point, but if I did not know a level such as say Kidnap very well, it seems weird to me that I couldn't just temporarily plonk an object down in a deserted area. I would technically first have to track down each AI, learn their routes by following each one around their (often long) patrols, and possibly take more than an hour doing this. Just to know whether a future Mechanist would walk through a spot.
I just feel that a rule that requires significant fore-knowledge and "research" of a mission in order to know whether you are complying with it, is unnecessary.
So, would that be a non-line crossing clarification or a line-crossing change?
Galaer on 19/2/2021 at 08:15
Quote Posted by klatremus
Are your objectives diruecting you to aid the ghost or follow its directions? If so, its excused. Otherwise no.
So destroying mirror is one of things necessary to free ghost from curse, she instructs to do that. And there is no escape from room other than that. But there is no objective talking about destroying curse or helping ghost. After destruction you get 2 new objectives from ghost what to do to destroy curse. Reward for completing both objectives is artifact called Quinicine Torc, which also completes one of objectives. We are getting it from ghost as a reward for destroying curse.
So can it be excused or not?
smithpd on 19/2/2021 at 23:48
Klatremus is correct. Only departures from the ghosting rules that are
explicitly required in an objective are allowed. The rule in question is:
Quote:
Any mission objective that explicitly demands that the player break one of the rules above is OK to complete and does not bust the ghost. Examples of such an objective are:
"Kill the bad guy."
"Kill all the Haunts" (in Return to the Cathedral)
"Kidnap Cavador" (he must be KO'ed to be picked up)
So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK.
It is not acceptable, however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective. For example, it is not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective, such as stealing something.
I think that no further clarifications are needed.
Regarding the mirror. There is no explicit objective to break the mirror, so breaking it is a bust.
Again, there is no shame in being busted. You can justify your game play and claim it was mostly successful. I think that it is not advisable to create an endless set of exceptions. I regret many of the exceptions that we allowed in the past because they are cause of much discussion and desire for even more exceptions.
klatremus on 20/2/2021 at 02:25
@Galaer: Unless it is explicitly stated in the objectives, it can't be excused. Like Peter said, if we start making exceptions, then other players will see that and start asking for other exceptions. "If you can break the mirror here, then why not the window here?" It's much safer to have a plain rule that follows the objectives, and if the mission forces a bust, then so be it. If it's a bust by design, then report it as such and nobody will blame you. Its not like you are a bad ghoster, since nobody can avoid the bust anyway. Who knows, maybe somebody clever comes along and finds an out of the box workaround. Hard rules sometimes force imaginative solutions.
@Cigam: Yes that rule is a bit up to the player. If a patroller has a long route and you have a small stack and know for sure that nobody sees it, then I'd say you're ok. The problem is when the stack is big and you have to leave the stack there for a while. That wouldnt be allowed if people are patrolling. Big stacks should be done out of view. But then the rule doesn't say anything about stationary guards. What if you can make a stack right in front of a standing guard, since it's in the shade? Since the rule doesn't say anything about that, I think its intent is to avoid stacks that walking guards obviously would see and react to, as in practically bumping onto. Good example is the fire shadow in Bonehoard. Being a bit relaxed here is ok.
downwinder on 20/2/2021 at 06:17
i got a question if you pick up dewdrop on a mech mission and 3 mechs are are in range and dewdrop automatically triggers does that break ghost ,as since the ghost of dewdrop appears in air i feel its ghosting :P
of course its not supreme ghost,unless its a requirement of objectives to have dewdrop for objective to complete mission
Galaer on 20/2/2021 at 08:36
I understand, my problem with understanding mirror was that this is part of the story. Sure, it doesn't specifically says that you need to help ghost or destroy mirror. Through the whole mission you are guided by ghost and instructed what to do. So instruction of destroying mirror felt a bit like objective even though it doesn't appear in objective screen.
Good example would be your Supreme Ghost report for The Dark Mod - Training mission, klatremus. You excuse all actions that bust ghost even though you don't have any objective that says to do training. Objective only says that there is no formal objectives and you can quit to menu. But even then you excuse that, because you are specifically guided by readables. In Scarlet Cascabel I'm guided by ghost. What do you think?
klatremus on 20/2/2021 at 21:05
Your response is kind of proving what Peter Smith and I said. When excuses are made in one mission, then players want to apply that to other missions also. I don't think your example is comparable at all. This is a training mission. This is my logic given in the report's introduction:
"Since it's a training mission, with no proper way to finish, I considered the instructions given throughout the various sections a replacement for a regular task list. Anything directed in the in-game notes or books would supersede busts towards the ghost mode, as if it was explicitly stated in a given objective. That would excuse for example knockouts or use of weapons if it was stated in a parchment for that section. If stated in a different section, it was not excused. This was the only way to keep it fair, yet challenging."
I think this description is a good enough explanation for why I made those readables count as objectives, since there are no objectives in the mission overall. Although I haven't played Scarlet Cascabel, the ghost's instructions do not sound like objectives.
Galaer on 20/2/2021 at 21:20
But there is objective in Training mission. It's just it has nothing to do without mission. But I don't think it's excusable to make readables to be objectives as a replacement just because there is no other objectives in objectives screen. I think back then you just made excuse from the rule you and Peter Smith mentioned before. Just like you said - this rule excuse ghost busts only when you have objective on objectives screen. Different situation just because it's training mission? I don't think so. Also rule doesn't mention anything about lack of objectives. So you should just avoid some instructions that can create ghost busts.
As for ghost she says directly: "Now, quickly destroy mirror and free me". By the way, it's the only way to progress the mission and never before in any mission I had situation when NPC asks me to destroy something without giving direct objective. That's what confused me.
klatremus on 21/2/2021 at 06:12
The mission's own objective list says: "There are no formal objectives nor difficulty levels in this trainer mission. Use Quit Mission on the main menu to finish." So no, there are no objectives. When the mission itself says so, I think it's pretty clear. An objective is a goal or a task that can be completed and checked off. There is nothing to complete here and no way to finish the mission. That is why I chose to treat each of the sections as small mini missions as part of a bigger hub, and treat the instructions you get in the readables and pop-up messages as objectives. They directly tell you what to do, so they basically replace any objectives you would get in a task list. There is even an optional objective to find all 10 healing potions hidden in one of the areas.
Also, the rule does not say "objectives on objective screen" like you said. It just refers to objectives. So if you get objectives from somewhere else instead of the objective screen, then the rules can still apply to those. And if you only go by what the information in the objective list in the training mission tells you, then all you need to do is start the mission and play for 1 second, then exit and say you ghosted it, Supreme ghosted it even. Nah, I don't think so Galaer. I think I was totally in the right to do what I did.
Since this mission is 1) deviating in structure from any other normal mission, and 2) not even for the regular Thief games but the Dark Mod, we can't take such a special case and extrapolate that to other regular missions. I made that decision since there were no normal objectives, not to excuse busts, but to give the mission a structure that made the playthrough fair and gave it something tangible to reference back to (as in the written instructions). No to mention the fact that the situation you're referring to is not even comparable. The Scarlet Cascabel has normal objectives, so you can easily apply the ghost rules normally.
If it's the only way to progress, then you're gonna have to treat it as a bust. There is no shame in that.