Cigam on 14/2/2021 at 18:03
On another note, I do agree that the original rules can't be changed. But surely a new set could be created. Rules 2.0 say. Then someone could state which version they are using, just as they should state whether they are playing a new or old dark version of the mission. But then I suppose that would complicate things, and the new rules wouldn't have the same kudos, even if they did fix some of the logical/consistency problems 20 years of analysis and FM-evolution, have brought up with the originals :)
Galaer on 14/2/2021 at 18:31
@klatremus: Now that you are saying it that way, I will definitely try supreme ghosting Shipping an Receiving without rope arrows. Also I think you are exaggerating a bit this challenge. I remember moving 50 or 60 crates through Life of the Party for my jumpless challenge. It was way more tedious, but also satisfying. It took me 6 hours, but Life of the Party is much longer mission. How many crates do I need for highest spot in Building B? Probably around 10 for 1st stack and another 10 for other 2 stacks to climb up. So 20 crates. It's not that much and many crates is nearby, so getting them and returning them will not be that hard. So I would say that the biggest challenge for me will be other enemies, especially spiders.
So yeah, I made note to remember about doing this challenge, so when I will finish my no horizontal camera challenge, I will jump to it.
klatremus on 14/2/2021 at 19:45
@Cigam: If something obvious has been overlooked, like forgetting to close/lock a door, or a first alert that wasn't noticed, resetting elevators and such, then yes it would be a bust. Crate stack on a long patrol path, I dunno. If it's so long the player didn't see anybody patrol there, I'd say you're good. I mean nobody saw your stack then either, so it's not like you were detected. But you should familiarize yourself with the patrol routes before stacking if Supreme Ghosting.
@Galaer: If you take on that challenge, that would be very cool. But even though you manage to, I'm still claiming it's no bust. ;)
klatremus on 15/2/2021 at 07:04
Quote Posted by Galaer
@klatremus: Sorry, I read carefully mentioned by you paragraph and looks like he understood this rule in the same way you originally mentioned. Just before quoted sentence he mentions that you can't buy non-loot items in loadout store. After quoted sentence he says that this is the reason for not buying Skeleton key and Garrett's Tip.
No, he says he won't pick up any non-loot items when playing the mission. It wouldn't make any sense to say you can't
buy non-loot items. Of course you can't buy loot in loadout screen...
The second sentence in the paragraph says "That means no purchases at the loadout." But then later in the same paragraph he specifies and says "Literally the no purchases rule applies only to weapons, ammunition and potions but I clicked right through it." So he was arguing that the rule really does not refer to keys or readables, but he chose not to buy those items anyway.
Another interesting piece of information I found in his actual ghost report of mission 1 (from the ghost report thread) is this:
Quote Posted by Sneak
Putting the flipping keys back down was another one of those, I don't get it, things. The cells doors make a sound at least 150 decibles louder than dropping a key ring. But he doesn't alert from the cell doors at all. But drop that key ring near him and that teensie little clink will have him in a wholesale fit of wide awake hunting you down. Well this has been discussed before in other places. Is just something the game does and has nothing to do with anything else.
Drop a key where you got it, on a patrol path, in a logical nearby location, or other logical spot such as a guard or security station etc. I could have avoided this whole area also and there was no loot amount to get in Objectives. But I wanted to play with it. I could drop the key dwon the hallway a bit from him which was probably fine. And I could drop it a bit closer if I leaned in and looked sort of down. It would land on end and fall over making a bit less sound.
But nothing I could do would get the key back beside him. Around the corner by the stairs is a chair that has a Fort Key laying on it. That is a logical place. I ended up leaving it there for that reason.I think this really proves that we are much stricter with the rules today than what Sneak intended. He used the "nearest logical place" argument when he couldn't put the key back besides the sleeping guard without waking him up. I've only ever used that principle if you have an item that you can't physically return due to limitations in the engine, like if a key taken from a niche can't be placed back in there, but instead has to be dropped on the floor nearby.
Galaer on 15/2/2021 at 11:13
Sorry for changing the topic, but right now I'm preparing to ghost Scarlet Cascabel. In Version 2 you are forced to explode barrier made out of big boulder, fallen wooden beams and 2 powder kegs. Destroying boulder is allowed by damage property rule, but destroying wooden beams and powder kegs (made by someone) isn't. Explosion is happening by using jumper switch.
My problem is execution of this explosion. First it makes custom sound, which doesn't alert anyone. Then I see only trace of the explosion on ground and a bit of smoke. No other traces, which leads me to thinking that the whole barrier has been cleverly teleported away and traces of explosion were teleported in. So my question is how should I interpret this rule: through story (need of making explosion is stated in nearby red book and also sound and teleported traces suggest that explosion happened) or through mechanics (boulder, wooden beams and powder kegs has been teleported to some room outside of map)?
marbleman on 15/2/2021 at 11:56
I thought about that myself and I would call it property damage. The authors decided to do this pseudo-explosion instead of a real one just so that it doesn't alert the entire town.
smithpd on 15/2/2021 at 23:26
Quote Posted by klatremus
I suggest the following clarification to Supreme rule #5:
Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. This thief doesn’t even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.This is not a change to the rule, but as stated above, a
clarification. This is in order to avoid prior reports from being invalidated. Let me know your thoughts.
I agree with everything you proposed here other than the continued inclusion of the sentence "This thief doesn’t even go to the store...", which we agree is pointless. It causes confusion when taken literally in the case of the loadout screen because it is impossible to satisfy. If taken literally, it prevents one from going into an in-game store. It is self contradictory with other provisions of rule 5. I can't understand the rationale for keeping that sentence for historical purposes. I see no value in trying to rewrite that sentence either. What is lost by deleting it, as long as you explain why in your release notes?
Cigam on 16/2/2021 at 00:44
Just curious about two crate-related queries. First, can you drop a crate on a patrol route IF the AI hasn't started patrolling yet? Or has stopped patrolling that spot?
Say the AI won't start patrolling that spot until after you trigger a conversation, or stops and stands still once they have reached a destination, and so never comes back?
Secondly, about returning crates to their original positions. Does it matter if you return a different crate to a spot, as long as there is a crate in the original spot?
For example, you make a ten-crate ramp and can reload to see how the crates were originally arranged in the storage shed. But can't quite remember whether the top-most crate in your ramp say, was the one originally against the back wall of the shed, or instead was the one next to the entrance. Does it matter as long as there a crates back in all the right places? Just wondering :)
klatremus on 16/2/2021 at 04:33
@smithpd: Thanks for your feedback. Yes that sentence is confusing.
@Cigam: Good questions. It is based on current patrollers, so those that have stopped patrolling or not yet started don't count. Also, if the crates are identical in appearance then it doesn't matter which crate goes where. But if there are some dark and some light crates, they should go back the way they were.
Galaer on 18/2/2021 at 21:25
In Scarlet Cascabel Mission 2 I'm forced to destroy mirror. It's not connected to any objectives, but you are instructed by ghost to do it. Can this damage property be excused or not?