marbleman on 20/1/2021 at 17:06
@klatremus: What's your stance on taking the floating gold skull in Alcazar? It acts as an AI who can alert to and attack you, so by frobbing it, we're effectively removing one of the guards from play. That said, we're not killing or knocking it out, and we're not causing its suicide, which is what the rules disallow.
klatremus on 20/1/2021 at 19:16
I haven't ghosted it yet, but its definitely coming up. I did think about that when playing though. I thought about checking stats, but if you say it doesn't count as kill, knockout or damage, that is interesting. Does it emit light? If so, taking it would remove a light source, and that's not allowed for Supreme at least. It's one of those one-of-a-kind special cases, how great of Schlock to give us that. It seems from your comment you're leaning towards no bust, am I right? To me it feels like a bust, without it necessarily explicitly breaking a rule. The fact that it's an AI to me is what makes it tough to accept. What say you?
Starker on 20/1/2021 at 19:25
AI or not, isn't it similar to turning off a watcher?
klatremus on 20/1/2021 at 19:33
No, because watchers can be turned back on. I would more compare it to removing the watcher permanently then, or perhaps destroying it.
Galaer on 20/1/2021 at 19:49
@marbleman: I encountered these item enemies in one or two missions before, but to be honest I never count it picking them up as a ghost bust. Reason is simply - this is created by author game mechanic. Since he allowed picking up the hostile skull that is part of loot as well, then I think it's fine. Ghost rules only mention to avoid dealing damage and alerts, so just try picking up skull when it doesn't see you. No idea about supreme ghost, but like klatremus said, I think the biggest problem is, if item emits light.
Starker on 20/1/2021 at 19:52
Yeah, by turning off I meant disabling. Not the best choice of words.
At least the Supreme Ghost rules say:
Quote:
8. No turning off of watchers, or other security systems.
marbleman on 20/1/2021 at 19:53
It does emit light, so it's not obtainable for Supreme. I am leaning towards no ghost bust although it's certainly weird. There is no rule that can even apply to this case; it's like if pickpocketing a guard would make him despawn. Scripted despawning of AIs is no bust though. The two guys having a conversation in Shipping and Receiving disappear, a whole bunch of people despawn over the course of Into the Odd. I honestly don't know what to make of this, but because the mission is ghostable and, with this skull, perfect thievable, I would take it for completion's sake.
@Galaer: referring to it as a mechanic of the mission is certainly appealing. Earlier it's been said that taking damage is okay in Keeper of the Prophecies because it's a gimmick of that mission, even though it's normally not allowed. Perhaps such loot items could indeed be taken under the same pretense.
Starker on 20/1/2021 at 20:11
Perhaps the "no turning off of watchers, or other security systems" rule should be changed to "no turning off or removing of watchers, or other security systems" to account for all cases? Cause the removal seems to be against the spirit of the rule at the very least.
klatremus on 20/1/2021 at 20:40
@Starker: removing a watcher would be considered property damage, so it's already covered there. That wouldn't be allowed for both Ghost and Supreme.
@marbleman & Galaer: I agree with your assessment that it's a game mechanic. The author made it frobbable and loot, so it's what the author has intended, albeit through a previously unseen mechanic. It's not damage, KO, kill or property damage, so I think we should be good there. If it emits light, then it's an easy decision for Supreme. So funny you mentioned the guard disappearing when picking pocket, because after your first message I had that scenario in my head in order to compare it to a more "normal" situation lol. Happy to hear it's Perfect Thievable though! Can it be Supremed, you think?
Starker on 20/1/2021 at 20:54
Sure, the rule might be fine for watchers, because you can't steal them (or at least I'm not aware of a mission where you can), but it's more the "other security systems" part that I think would cover more ground, this case in particular.