klatremus on 10/1/2021 at 23:47
Thank you for looking the rule over. I think lately we have deviated a bit from the original wording and instead started implementing subjective opinions, gameplay mechanics, logical/illogical scenarios, real world comparisons, when the rule set actually gives us enough examples to go on. Theres even a 'ghost rules interpretation' section in the official rules between the ghost and supreme rules. That should give us a good idea of what the mode's authors were imagining when coming up with the rules. I think its more important to understand the spirit of the rules rather than discuss every single scenario at length. Ive contacted Peter Smith about this issue also, mostly because i want to hear his idea of the property damage rule.
Galaer on 11/1/2021 at 10:24
@klatremus: I actually saw life hacks how people are raising shackle with bolt cutters and it was later used normally. So it's possible. But if you want another way how about that? What if these bolt cutters are enchanted with magic to open every padlock. Unrealistic in our world, but Garrett's world has magic. There are glyphs that opens passages. Why not magic that opens every padlock by just touching it? Then there is no damage property.
As for vines: there is no vines that can block Garrett's path other than this one. Normally Garrett would easily go through this vines in the same way how he goes through curtains in this mission. But he must cut them with sword. And remember he was captured by thieves, they know Garrett has no weapon. That's why they quickly crafted this artificial obstacle. It's indicated by thieves patrolling only starting area, while they could split and one could patrol starting area and other area behind vines. But they know where Garrett is and blocked rest of the forest with these vines. That's why Garrett can't go through it by walking or even just frobbing it, so he will move vines to the side.
On more thing about icicles: Grandmauden noticed that Pagan in his condition couldn't squeeze through icicles and if he tried he would left blood on it. Therefore it's impossible that icicles were there when he was running into Victoria's Lair. So icicles must have been created after he entered lair. Icicles need many hours to grow, but Garrett was right behind Pagan. That's why icicles can't be created naturally, magic was used to create them.
Property damage rule already explain this very well - "no things burnt or destroyed". In other words not just human obstacles, but also natural obstacles can't be destroyed with your weapons or by throwing explosives. Unless it's excused by objective. I don't see what's a problem for you to understand this, klatremus. But maybe you are misleaded by word "property". Maybe it should be changed to 'obstacle", "physical" or maybe "weapon" damage. And remember original ghost rules have been made for original Thief 1 and Thief 2. Nobody was thinking that FM creators will decide to use natural obstacles instead of human made obstacles in their missions. You can laugh at me, but when ghosting I always feel bad when I need to destroy boulder or cobweb or other natural obstacle. I always report that as a bust too, it just doesn't feel good. It kinda feels like killing undead. He's also dead and can't be nudged just like any obstacle, but I use weapon to make him stop existing. That's a bust and for me it feels the same with every obstacle. Using weapons is just a fail.
I think that's what old ghosters meant by this rule - they wanted to prevent people from destroying any obstacle by using weapons and throwable objects. Because using these methods feels cheap.
Starker on 11/1/2021 at 12:24
Quote Posted by Galaer
Icicles need many hours to grow
In the Maw? In a place called Winter that's strange enough it has its own climate? How do you know? There could be magic bolt cutters that open locks by touch, but not a place where icicles grow fast?
Galaer on 11/1/2021 at 13:50
Quote Posted by Starker
In the Maw? In a place called Winter that's strange enough it has its own climate? How do you know? There could be magic bolt cutters that open locks by touch, but not a place where icicles grow fast?
If icicles could grow that fast on their own, then Pagan couldn't go through it, isn't it? That's why I believe someone placed these icicles artificially. You can't just say that place itself chose when these icicles will grow fast and when they will not, right? Probably Pagan made his report to Victoria about Mechanists invasion before dying, so she (Victoria) sealed entrance to her lair.
Starker on 11/1/2021 at 13:55
Sealed the entrance with easily breakable icicles? As for the Maw, they might as well materialise out of thin air for all we know. Who knows with pagan places where creatures like Victoria reside. Remember how strange Constantine's mansion got?
Galaer on 11/1/2021 at 14:27
Quote Posted by Starker
Sealed the entrance with easily breakable icicles? As for the Maw, they might as well materialise out of thin air for all we know. Who knows with pagan places where creatures like Victoria reside. Remember how strange Constantine's mansion got?
Icicles are better than nothing and have in mind that Mechanists are more noisy than your typical thief. They would wake up treebeasts and you know how dangerous they are. As for Maw, this one you need to explain for me. I played Thief 1 and 2 quite a lot and I never noticed icicles materializing out of thin air in front of my eyes. The only thing that breaks law of physics is water on ceiling. This only means that it's possible to make icicles flying above ground, I guess. No idea what would be the point of doing that, but that's the only strange environment I see in Constantine's Mansion. The rest like spiral passage, space room can only have specific wallpaper, furniture can be stick to walls and ceiling by nails. That's all.
Starker on 11/1/2021 at 14:36
I'm just wondering that if you think that there could very easily be a magic lock opening tool that's for some reason shaped like ordinary bolt cutters, why couldn't there be strange things going on in the Maw? Why are you so sure physics work there like they do in our world?
Galaer on 11/1/2021 at 16:36
@Starker: But you are wrong, I just wanted to show to other people that property damage can be interpreted in many different way. Sorry, if you thought I'm attacking your opinion. You may be correct, but I also can be correct, because our opinions are just based on our imaginations how Garrett's world function and our interpretations of the story. And that's the problem.
@klatremus: If you look at the rules you will notice one thing - they are defined by game mechanics, not by real world rules. Only reasoning why rule has been made can be explained by real world (example: shopping rule in supreme ghost rules), but rules are explained only through mechanics. But if you would start to explain through real life, then you need to explain why shopping before mission is forbidden for supreme, but shopping during mission isn't. It's the same shop, but rule mention no between mission shopping (that's a mechanic). And what about not scoring ghost busts by getting spotted by neutral AI? The rules of failing ghost run are defined by alerts (game mechanic), so AI that not alert isn't any bust. But if you would use real life logic, it would be hard ghost bust, because you would evidently being seen.
That's just few examples why real life shouldn't verify if ghost run has been completed. Right now you need to use your imagination to explain if certain obstacle is a property of someone or isn't or was, but isn't anymore. All this can be explained to favor of player or not. It's just based on player's personality. We need to avoid this kind of situation at all cost. It's not just confusing for current group of ghosters. What if someone new will decide to join in making ghost reports? He will be the same confused like us.
We need to define this rule and just like other rules, do it through game mechanics. My proposition is to ban using weapons and throwable objects that leads to damage of any kind of environment.
marbleman on 11/1/2021 at 21:16
@klatremus: Would you say that a guard altering his patrol as a result of the player's actions is a bust if it's a scripted event? Say I unlock the door, and the guard stops patrolling near it and stations himself inside the doorway. He doesn't give any alerts or enter first- or second-alert state, but it's still a change in behavior even if it's scripted. I'm really torn on this one.
Grandmauden on 11/1/2021 at 23:11
I'll wait until we hear back from Peter Smith about the property damage rule before I decide either way, but I do want to correct one thing:
Quote Posted by Galaer
Grandmauden noticed that Pagan in his condition couldn't squeeze through icicles and if he tried he would left blood on it. Therefore it's impossible that icicles were there when he was running into Vi
ktoria's Lair. So icicles must have been created after he entered lair.
That's not quite what I said.
Quote:
Remember that the Pagan courier was able to get past the icicles without damaging them, and when I loaded up the mission just now to look at the icicles, it seems plausible that there's just enough room for the Pagan to squeeze past them (the only reason Garrett can't do the same is because of hitboxes).
The icicles' object models don't completely block the passage, so I concluded that it's entirely within reason for the Pagan to be able to maneuver around the already-existing icicles (Maybe Garrett could've, too, if he were a goth wannabe who liked to crawl into narrow spaces and shove boards out of his way :p). True, there's no blood on or around the icicles, but the same is true for most of the Pagan's route throughout the mission.
Also, remember that Garrett finds the courier's body alone and still holding Mosley's letter, and only in the following cutscene do Viktoria and the others show up. This, to me, strongly implies that the courier bled out before he got the chance to warn anyone, so I find it hard to believe that the icicles were magically grown after his arrival to protect the area.