downwinder on 31/12/2020 at 00:57
rule #1337 save while doing a ghost run saving/reloading should not be allowed as we all know reloading a save game can alter a.i. in many ways,giving player advantage
rule #0.6 rule 0.5 will be stricken from the book of rules,approved by the hag
the reason i made rules is i was thinking imagine if someone was able to pull off a supreme with rules i had in place,it would be the most impressive run ever
also i have one question,is it against rules to pick up dewdrop in a ghost/supreme run and finish mission with him? if so all rules need to really be looked at with a fine toothed comb,while sipping my fav year after talking to benny
klatremus on 31/12/2020 at 04:11
@marbleman: What is your position on the closing of the tomb door once taking the Right Arm of St. Lucard in Lost Among the Forsaken. Is it a trap, and thus a Supreme bust? I'm unsure, but leaning towards no. I think traps more as those that are trying to inflict pain by shooting, crushing, releasing of gas, etc. Plus, it's a direct consequence of taking an objective, and thus completely unavoidable. It's comparable to taking the talisman in undercover and setting off the alarm. There is no scenario where the door won't close, because it is a script directly tied to obtaining the objective, not by stepping on a pressure plate, tripping a wire, or getting spotted by a sensor. What do you think?
Of course, anyone else can chime in as well.
Grandmauden on 31/12/2020 at 06:07
Regarding downwinder's hypothetical rules: Ghosting is not supposed to add some sense of ultra-realism to the gameplay, but rather to give players an optional challenge that's difficult but still fun. Making mistakes is inevitable, especially on a blind playthrough, so attempting a Ghost run on a mission you've never played before is certainly even more difficult. However, forcing yourself to abandon the Ghost run forever because of one mistake is not only zero fun, it ultimately ruins the point of playing the Ghost style entirely.
And since this isn't the first time downwinder proposed a "no saves or reloads" rule in this thread (see page 1), I'll just refer back to the response I gave him last time:
Quote Posted by Grandmauden
The skill in ghosting a mission doesn't come from saving and reloading over and over until you find that one gap in a guard's patrol. The true skill of ghosting comes from encountering an obstacle, observing and experimenting with said obstacle, and finding or inventing a solution to get around that obstacle, whether it be an alternate route or using objects in a clever way, all within a self-imposed list of restrictions.
In short, ghosting is about puzzle-solving, especially in situations that the author didn't intend to be puzzles. To get a better idea of what I mean, go read some of klatremus's ghost reports on his website, or watch his ghosting videos on Youtube.
While Ghosting and Iron Manning are both fun challenges for veteran players who've mastered the gameplay and know the mission down to the last detail, these two playstyles require different skillsets and levels of patience, so it's probably best to keep them separate.
Regarding Dewdrop: in a regular Ghost run, I think picking up Dewdrop, if only for sentimental reasons, should be fine. Supreme Ghost, however, forbids unnecessary item pickups. The only pickups allowed in Supreme are loot, objective requirements, or other items you intend to use (such as keys or rope arrows, and even these need to be returned if possible). Because Dewdrop's only function was to blind the Mechanists in "Trail of Blood" (and I'm pretty sure this function isn't included in most FMs with Dewdrop, if any), the only way a Supreme Ghoster could take Dewdrop is if an objective said so (e.g. "Escape Hammer Hill") or if Dewdrop was treated as a loot item (e.g. "United Bank of Auldale").
Galaer on 31/12/2020 at 09:15
Rule #1337: this could be interesting challenge. Optional challenge. We could make stats how far we can go in the mission without saving/loading or maybe even including blind run. These would be extreme challenges, that's why they would be optional. You mentioned reloading save game can alter AI route. Well, sometimes AI walks in circles or get blocks on certain obstacle like wall. Saving/loading then will most of the time fix AI route.
Rule #0.6: this is interesting, because you approve existence of rule 0.5.
As for Last Among Forsaken: if Right Arm of St. Lucard isn't placed on pressure plate, then it looks like closing tomb after taking it is a script. And scripts aren't any bust.
As for The Sound of a Burrick in a Room. Don't remember this situation, but if you could push wall, then could you push it back. Also if you managed to push wall, then shouldn't it mean that it was broken in the first place, because normally you can't push walls away.
marbleman on 31/12/2020 at 09:50
@klatremus: Overall, it looks like a trap. If I recall correctly, you die if you can't make it out of the room. That said, we could separate the door closing from the damage inflicted on you if you don't make it. The door is just a door; the actual trap activates once the door is closed.
I also can't help but compare this to (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146197&page=6&p=2426025&viewfull=1#post2426025) a situation in Heart and Soul, where I claimed Supreme success. In that mission, there is also a door, which can open underneath you and result in death. But the real danger there are the spikes beneath, not the door itself.
klatremus on 31/12/2020 at 15:48
@marbleman: The combination of it being linked with the main objective, plus the fact that it is only a door (one that I even spent time getting open), I wouldn't say it busts Supreme. Rereading your situation and my response from Heart and Soul reaffirms this point. It's an intended and unavoidable progression of the mission. Furthermore, I always thought traps would bust Supreme because it left evidence, as in the trap mechanism being sprung. Well, since the only thing happening is the door shutting, I don't think that applies here either. And like I said previously, closing the door technically is required for Supreme too.
@Galaer: There's no pressure plate or tripwire, no. It's definitely scripted. In Sound of a Burrick, there's a wall that is put together, but you can push it and several of the bricks collapses into the cave beyond. Each brick can't be picked up individually afterwards, no there's no way to put it back together.
marbleman on 31/12/2020 at 16:00
Nah, they aren't individual bricks. The wall is one big chunk, but you can't pick it up.
klatremus on 31/12/2020 at 16:35
I stand corrected.
Galaer on 31/12/2020 at 19:32
Marbleman, I mentioned that in videos thread, but check posts #62-65 in this thread.
marbleman on 31/12/2020 at 19:37
That's what I meant earlier as well when I said that no damage is technically being inflicted. Maybe klatremus can solidify this once he gets to this mission.
