Galaer on 23/12/2020 at 17:28
Hey there, I just got info about a very weird rule in ghosting I had no idea about. I'm talking about Rule #9 talking about not using lootlists and walkthroughs. I don't think this rule is needed, because it has nothing to do with actual ghosting, but rather it involves test runs, which most of the time are just casual gameplay. Plus some missions has some really obscure solutions that it's very hard to figure out on your own. Not mentioning some key items hidden in very hard to find places. This rule just makes test runs to go forever, make them unbelievably stressful and frustrating and this stress has nothing to do with stress during actual ghost runs.
I think it would be good to revoke this rule or just make it optional. What do you think?
Galaer on 23/12/2020 at 17:30
So that means that you asking for help is a ghost bust and you are gonna include it in your report?
klatremus on 23/12/2020 at 18:00
Asking for hints on the forums is not a bust Galaer. The rule says "walkthrough or loot cheat" which is generally accepted to mean a loot list (except if you made it yourself). That's why in my first post I specified giving me a loose hint on where the item I missed could be, for example the building it's in, or general area of the map.
Whenever I've used walkthrough before I've included it in the report, for example Ruins of Originia I used one 3 times to get through first mission.
The rule also says it's on the honor system, so it's a bit up to each player how they use it. But no walkthroughs and loot lists are pretty clear.
Galaer on 23/12/2020 at 18:21
Quote Posted by klatremus
Asking for hints on the forums is not a bust Galaer.
But you will get your answer from someone else looking at the lootlist. So in the end you are using lootlist, but indirectly.
Edit: I checked lootlist for you and looks like you are missing something from
Thorin Floodgates.
klatremus on 23/12/2020 at 20:12
The point of the rule is to avoid direct spoilers, so when visiting the forum, I ask for loose hints in order to avoid that. I can't control what other people have used in providing the hint, but as long as I'm not directly using someone else's loot list or walkthrough, I'm not breaking any rule.
Thanks for the hint Galaer! I will check it out later today. :)
Galaer on 23/12/2020 at 20:58
Quote Posted by klatremus
The point of the rule is to avoid direct spoilers, so when visiting the forum, I ask for loose hints in order to avoid that. I can't control what other people have used in providing the hint, but as long as I'm not directly using someone else's loot list or walkthrough, I'm not breaking any rule.
How else you expected people to help you. If you need one certain loot and you provide your lootlist, then it's obvious someone else will check lootlist. I find your excuse to be farfetched. You know very well what's needed to get an answer, but it's OK if someone else will give an answer. And that's idiotic. You are just lying to yourself. But you know what's more idiotic - this rule has nothing to do with ghosting. It's just for your inner satisfaction. But that's an achievement for the most patient and clever.
That being said, I think it should be you checking this lootlist. I have wasted 15 min for checking both lootlists and if you don't want too many spoilers you can always cover columns showing more specific placement of loot with your hand or something also and if you have no idea where is loot gradually uncover starting from left column. So yeah, instead of waiting for someone else do your job, you should do this job yourself.
klatremus on 23/12/2020 at 22:45
I can tell you feel very strongly about this Galaer. No need to get worked up. I disagree with you on both points. I wasn't giving an excuse, I was simply saying I was seeking a loose hint rather than a direct spoiler, which the rule was meant for. The original creators probably didn't want players following a step by step walkthrough and loot list, completing the entire mission this way, and then claiming a successful ghost. I'm sure that once you finish the mission on your own, using a list the way you suggested, by covering up sections and using categories/locations instead of direct spoilers to find remaining loot/secrets is ok. I myself have done this before, and had no issues about it. I'm fully aware that your hint (or anybody's hint) would use fortuni's or my loot list, and pass on that information to me. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. When I made the first post I wasn't even aware there was a loot list for this mission, so I obviously had no intention of others using it. I was mainly referring to the creator(s)/testers to check my list if they easily could spot some well-hidden loot I missed. If you choose to spend 15 minutes doing that of course I am grateful, but it is ultimately your choice, nobody is forcing your hand. This entire forum is on a volunteer basis anyway. When I know there is a list of course I could check it, but then I would risk getting a direct spoiler and that would first remove the fun of finding it by searching, and second go against the spirit of the ghost rules. That is the main reason any player would ask for a hint to complete anything on the forum. Most missions have walkthroughs that the player could use, but many feel that violates their desires way of playing, and would rather want lighter hints on how to proceed.
I very much disagree with the rule having nothing to do with ghosting. The rule set for both Ghost and Supreme tries to replicate rules that an actual master thief would have and how he would carry himself. No proper thief would ever have access to a manual on how to complete a mission or where to find the loot. So again, the creators of the mode wanted players to complete the mission on their own, if claiming a successful ghost run.
downwinder on 23/12/2020 at 23:59
^ then asking for any kind of hint is a bust
as a true master thief would not be able to ask for a piece of loot /loose hint,as if another thief was there ,they would have took the loot :P
dewdrop approved this message
#1 rule of life i learned is being smarter then others ,makes people hate you
raindrop approved this message
#2 rule of life is people will double down on what they say to make it seem more correct even if they wrong
downwinder approved this message
that is why i don't ghost/supreme ,everyone has different view points on how rules are read/understood
where is zylon bane :P ,yes being sarcastic before 2020 is over
i hope you all have a happy holiday and happy new year
klatremus on 24/12/2020 at 03:22
I was only saying the reason the rule is there is to make it more realistic. Of course asking for hints on the forum isn't realistic, but that doesn't break ghost was my point. Totally agree with differences in interpretations about the rules, that's why there's a discussion thread and such controversy around it (which I kind of think is fun).
Found the last piece of loot btw. It was indeed a ring, and probably the most well-hidden of them all. Not feeling too bad I missed that one first time around.
Galaer on 24/12/2020 at 09:12
My problem with this rule is that it enters preferences of casual playing. This rule enforce how to play the missions and I'm not that young anymore to search every pixel of the mission for many hours. I don't like it, because it kinda enforce like also mentioning that you need to p[lay with max ambient sound or with fog just because it brings atmosphere. Something that can easily prevent hearing a bust. I prefer to disable it, because it's easier to hear alerts, but also some sounds can hurt my ears (like wind). As for fog - enemies can see through it, so they have unfair advantage and also for me missions look worse. Are you gonna enforce specific settings for me? Because it will be totally not fun. That's why this rule - searching for many hours for solution just isn't fun for me and ghosting should be fun hard challenge.
As for what downwinder said, I agree with that, authors of these rules probably wanted to make reports without anyone help. So not only using lootlist or walkthrough, but also asking for help is a bust. Though not realistic, because I can imagine someone living in City making walkthroughs and lootlists for other people. Garrett probably bought it or stole it from local fortune teller, so he could use it.
And what about situation I beat mission using walkthrough 10+years ago, but mission was memorable enough that I didn't need to use walkthrough when I started making ghost reports. But upon reading rules more carefully I notice that this rule has actually another flaw - it mentions to not do that during ghost mode, not before ghosting.