marbleman on 20/4/2020 at 08:20
Just to clarify: is disabling traps allowed for Supreme? I just checked the rules, and it seems to be the case. Never crossed my mind though.
Galaer on 20/4/2020 at 10:44
Quote Posted by klatremus
Does this rule also refer to the disabling of traps, especially traps that are protecting objects of value (loot/objectives). Galaer just ghosted The Varyx Obelisk, which I haven't played, and apparently had to disable 2 traps there, and counted them as busts.
First of all I didn't really supreme ghosted this mission, I just did regular ghost. But I always thought that disabling traps counts the same as disabling watchers and turrets. Also have in mind that usually you can only avoid activating traps, very rarely author gives player ability to disable them.
Quote Posted by klatremus
If you trip an alarm however, then it is second alerting the guards in the building that ultimately busts you, not the sound of the alarm itself.
It varies between mission, because sometimes there is objective to not trigger any alarms. But if there is none of that, then enemy AI alerts not to the trigger of alarm, but to alarm sound. For example recall my Mystic Estate report. Entering Library trigger alarm (it's alarm based on in what area you are). This alarm appear only in 1st half of Library, so guard on the other side of Library may not hear it immediately. By doing failed mantle on door I can turn off alarm (not permanently though, reentering Library will trigger alarm again). But alarm is for small enough time that it doesn't alert any guard.
Quote Posted by klatremus
An example that backs up my line of reasoning is the "seals" that sometimes protect objects of value, such as the Talisman in Undercover. When you read the Prayer of the Wallbuilder, the seal disappears and the "trap" of taking damage when you try to frob it is removed. That would also be removing a security system, but it has always been accepted for Supreme, and never even mentioned in the ghosting discussion for that mission.
To be honest I always thought about removing this seal as solving a puzzle. And solving puzzles is excused in Supreme Ghost. In Undercover you remove this barrier by... reading. I don't recall any security measure that can be disabled in that way. That's why it never occurred to me it's disabling security. If I would classify this seal as other than a puzzle, it would be opening door that can't be closed later. Also it triggers alarm, which 2nd alert everyone and is ghost bust anyway. Also I believe in older version of Olddark it's possible to get protected Talismans through the seal, so there is no need to remove it and trigger the alarm. I think I saw that on speedruns.
Galaer on 20/4/2020 at 14:37
3 questions not related to previous discussion:
1) I just read supreme ghost rules and there is something that confused me. Long time ago I watched Travis Whitsitt supreme ghost run of Shipping and Receiving. And I think he mentioned that grabbing rope arrow in this mission is a supreme bust, because rope arrow is unnecessary to finish mission and can't be returned, because it's the arrow. But rules don't forbid grabbing equipment during the mission, they only mention not buying anything in shops. And there is also this rule about returning what can be returned. Rope arrows can't be returned, so it's excused? So is grabbing equipment that can't be returned, but can be used to get optional loot is a supreme bust or not?
2) And speaking about shopping, what about shops inside missions? In some missions they appear and we can buy or we are even forced to buy some equipment like rope arrow. And sometimes we use our loot for that? Is this shopping a supreme bust?
3) Also what about flares? They aren't consumables and they can be returned. But some missions use eternal darkness gimmick. Increasing gamma is useless and the only way to see anything is by using some source of light like flares. Otherwise I would be completely blind in these missions. Also can I relight torches. Sure there is rule about not dousing torches, but isn't lighten torch, which wasn't lighten, a visible change? So is using flares that can be returned to see anything in mission, a supreme bust?
klatremus on 22/4/2020 at 05:52
Quote Posted by marbleman
Just to clarify: is disabling traps allowed for Supreme? I just checked the rules, and it seems to be the case. Never crossed my mind though.
There is no rule that says anything about the illegality of disabling traps. The rule in question (#8) is the only one that
could disallow it, although my opinion is it doesn't.
Quote Posted by Galaer
1) I just read supreme ghost rules and there is something that confused me. Long time ago I watched Travis Whitsitt supreme ghost run of Shipping and Receiving. And I think he mentioned that grabbing rope arrow in this mission is a supreme bust, because rope arrow is unnecessary to finish mission and can't be returned, because it's the arrow. But rules don't forbid grabbing equipment during the mission, they only mention not buying anything in shops. And there is also this rule about returning what can be returned. Rope arrows can't be returned, so it's excused? So is grabbing equipment that can't be returned, but can be used to get optional loot is a supreme bust or not?
Supreme rule #13 says: "
Keep a clean inventory: don't pick up what you don't need and return what is not usable." That means picking up what you know is not needed, or not returning what you don't need is a bust. That's probably what Travis was referring to. The only exception would be if you open a chest not knowing what's in it, if you get arrow you can't return them. Then it wouldn't be required to reload far back just to avoid the pickup. However, I always quicksave before opening a chest, so that I can reload if it is not loot.
Quote Posted by Galaer
2) And speaking about shopping, what about shops inside missions? In some missions they appear and we can buy or we are even forced to buy some equipment like rope arrow. And sometimes we use our loot for that? Is this shopping a supreme bust?
No, only the shop at the loadout screen is disallowed. In-game shops you can use, and make sure you are not caught. But of course, if others get alerted as you visit the shop, that is a bust.
Quote Posted by Galaer
3) Also what about flares? They aren't consumables and they can be returned. But some missions use eternal darkness gimmick. Increasing gamma is useless and the only way to see anything is by using some source of light like flares. Otherwise I would be completely blind in these missions. Also can I relight torches. Sure there is rule about not dousing torches, but isn't lighten torch, which wasn't lighten, a visible change? So is using flares that can be returned to see anything in mission, a supreme bust?
The rules don't say anything about
creating light sources, only removing them. But if you light a torch, there should be a very good reason for it, plus you should remove the light later due to rule #7. Flare I guess are ok to use, again if it is really necessary. If they are returned, can they be picked up and reused? I wouldn't think so. In that case, I would almost just carry them with you. Not sure about that one, as I have never used flares for Supreme.
Galaer on 22/4/2020 at 20:40
I am right now ghosting Eternal Candle and I have 2 questions:
1. After freeing a Athropos from Prison, she's running back to her house. If she gets there safe, then I will get bonus objective completed. But I don't think it's possible during ghosting. She's alerting every guard and gets killed. It makes friendly haunt to spawn, but he dies very soon too. Should I consider her alerting everyone a ghost bust?
2. After dousing eternal candle, earthquake happens and 2nd alert guards. Should I consider this a ghost bust?
marbleman on 22/4/2020 at 20:54
Well, if it is in the spirit of Supreme to leave everything the way it is, I would disallow disarming traps.
klatremus on 23/4/2020 at 04:24
Quote Posted by marbleman
Well, if it is in the spirit of Supreme to leave everything the way it is, I would disallow disarming traps.
I somewhat agree with you. However, I'd rather say the spirit of Supreme is
reversing everything to the way it was. Otherwise, you are not allowed to do anything at all without busting. For example, you are allowed to take equipment if you need it, as long as you return what is returnable. You are allowed to unlock doors as long as you relock them. However, gates that are opened that can't be reclosed are allowed, items that stick to your inventory are allowed, items that can't be returned to the exact location can be dropped in the nearest logical place. So why then shouldn't disarming traps be allowed if it means not springing the trap which is a bust? If you can rearm the trap, that would naturally be required for Supreme, but if it can't, well then isn't it the same as not reclosing a gate because the lever can't be operated again?
Also, to me the question here isn't whether or not Supreme should allow disarming traps, it is rather whether the original rule #8
meant to include the disarming of traps. To me it didn't.
I am not looking to amend or add any rules, rather clarify one that is already there.
I would really like your thought on this line of reasoning, marbleman.
marbleman on 23/4/2020 at 09:06
Okay, for that particular question I would say no. Traps and security systems are not the same thing even if they have the same purpose, to stop intruders. However, it is then important to differentiate the two. The way I'd do it is by two criteria. Firstly, the player cannot usually see traps beforehand, unlike security systems which have a clear manifestation in watchers, alarm lights, etc. Yes, there are sometimes visible emitters but they are not prominent in most cases, and even spiked walls that the player can see beforehand usually have no clear indication as to what sets them off. Secondly, their purpose is achieved in different ways. Security systems are set up to alert AIs to your presence (alerting guards, activating turrets, etc.) while traps are set up to outright kill you. While a trap, such as a falling boulder, can alert AIs, it is not the real intent behind it.
All that said, why do we treat security systems and traps differently if they essentially serve the same purpose? Why is turning off security systems not allowed at all why disarming traps is fine? Well, I'll go ahead and answer that using the very point I made. Since a security system is clearly visible, people would notice if it goes down. Nobody would notice a disarmed trap.
However, I would also argue that re-arming traps should be necessary since everything has to be reversed to the way it was (that's what I meant in my previous post, just worded it in a poor and overly categorical way). I know this opens a can of worms, especially with traps that cannot be re-armed. For example, the crushing statue in Chalice of Souls can be deactivated by pressing the skull. It is clearly a trap, so would it be more appropriate to never disarm it and skip the loot it's guarding? Cannot even answer that myself, but it is a kind of thing that supreme ghosters should give some consideration to.
klatremus on 24/4/2020 at 05:10
I think you and I are in 100% agreement, marbleman. Nothing you said I oppose:
1) The original rule did not intend to include disarming of traps.
2) Alarm systems (which I think is a better term to use in the rules than 'security systems') are distinctly different from traps because their disarming would be noticed by human enemies, and are implemented in order to alert other enemies, not to kill Garrett.
3) Rearming traps is necessary for Supreme, which I think it already is following rule #7. Those that can't be rearmed are excused, just like not closing doors/gates than can't be reclosed or not returning items that stick to the inventory would be excused. I would say that it follows the spirit of Supreme not to disarm such traps unless it leads to objectives or loot. You wouldn't skip the loot for Supreme because you do not bust Supreme in order to get it. You only skip loot that you need to bust Supreme in order to take, or take it and accept the bust. As you know, I do the former.
A good example would be the trap you mentioned in Chalice of Souls. It leads to loot, but disarming the trap is no bust, even though you can't rearm it. Another good example is the first trap in Unexpected Shelter (T2X mission 1). You have to disarm a spear trap to proceed. The lever can be reset and the trap therefore rearmed, but you can't do that and proceed, so you have to pass the trap and leave it disarmed. This is a Supreme bust, because the trap
can be rearmed.
Quote Posted by Galaer
I am right now ghosting Eternal Candle and I have 2 questions:
1. After freeing a Athropos from Prison, she's running back to her house. If she gets there safe, then I will get bonus objective completed. But I don't think it's possible during ghosting. She's alerting every guard and gets killed. It makes friendly haunt to spawn, but he dies very soon too. Should I consider her alerting everyone a ghost bust?
2. After dousing eternal candle, earthquake happens and 2nd alert guards. Should I consider this a ghost bust?
1. I have not played this mission. Is releasing her an objective? If so, you have to release her and she is the one getting seen/heard, not you. As long as guards don't alert to you, I'd say you're fine. If you don't have to release her, I would say this wouldn't be allowed for Supreme, it is just too messy. But I guess even that is up for interpretation. Difficult one than.
2. I again assume dousing the candle is an objective. The following earthquake is a scripted response to doing an objective, and that in turn alerts enemies. This one I'd say is ok and no bust. Unless the dousing itself is what alerts the enemies, but that is not what you said happened. It is something outside your control.
Galaer on 24/4/2020 at 09:06
The reason that original rules don't mention disarming traps is because they were made for original missions. And in original missions there is no way to disarm traps. Maybe except trapped floor in Masks, but maybe it was classified as security measure.
Also I believe that disarming traps isn't in the spirit of supreme ghosting (minimal interaction with environment while completing objectives). Disarming traps means like making something easier. Just like turning off watchers, turrets or even lights. That's why I would prefer to add no disarming traps rule into supreme ghost rules. If trap protects loot, then simple skip it. If trap doesn't allow you to progress, then mention it's deactivation as a supreme bust, because there is no shame in failing supreme bust. I'm against giving too much leeway in this mode. It was supposed to be for hardcore ghosters.
Also what about situation where you can both disarm trap and avoid activating it at the same time. Avoiding trap feels more in the spirit of supreme ghost. But if there will be rule allowing disarming traps, then smart people will just deactivate trap, do their business and afterwards simple rearm the trap. That's too easy.