SD on 7/4/2010 at 09:14
Oh please. He deliberately picked an extremely narrow portion of policy where there is agreement between the major parties, just to be awkward. Only a nutcase believes we should leave the European Union.
If he had referred more broadly to EU policy, then of course there are huge differences between the parties in their attitudes to the EU, the level and pace of integration they favour, and so on.
All of our parties believe climate change is real too, and none want to leave the UN or declare war on Russia or execute pickpockets - does this mean they're all the same, with no discernible differences? Of course not.
The question about grammar schools is one I can't really answer either, mainly because the parties keep changing their minds all the time. Again, it's a question asked to make me look silly and reinforce the ludicrous idea that what we have here is a choice between three different flavours of ice cream when there are fundamental ideological differences at play.
Thirith on 7/4/2010 at 09:40
In practice, what would you say are the big differences between the Conservatives and Labour? Honest question here: from a distance, I definitely get the difference in rhetorics between the two parties, but Labour definitely strikes me as exceedingly lukewarm with respect to socialist issues. What are the major policy differences between the two?
Brian The Dog on 7/4/2010 at 09:47
Namdrol - the BBC interviewed the shadow-chancellor (is that the correct term when they're not the formal opposition?) for the SNP, and he was saying that it's important that, since all three main parties say there will be cuts bigger than Thatcher implemented, none of these cuts get passed onto Scotland. Bear in mind Britain needs to save 4-5 times the national defence budget before it even stops borrowing new money, let along starts paying it back! I guess he's worried since Scotland employs a disproportionate number of people in the Public Sector. Still, the entire country is completely stuffed economically for the next 5-10 years. All the parties know this, but none can say it since it would be an instant vote-loser.
My brother lives in Crawley, which has a majority of 30 (2nd smallest in the country) and the local Labour MP has given up on and is resigning :) I'm a bit unsure who to vote for since (a) my local MP is Kate Hoey who sticks the knife in to Labour whenever they do anything daft, and (b) the Lib Dems are in 2nd place but too far behind (8000) to do much. I said I wouldn't vote for Labour this time as they didn't plan for a recession they knew was coming, but I do quite like my local MP as she's more of an Independent who often sides with Labour.
SD - One area that all the parties pretty much agree on is Immigration - Radio 5 did an "interview people in the street in Manchester" which has lots of marginals nearby, and at least half said Immigration was in their 5 areas they were worried about.
ffox on 7/4/2010 at 10:07
Quote:
In practice, what would you say are the big differences between the Conservatives and Labour? Honest question here: from a distance, I definitely get the difference in rhetorics between the two parties, but Labour definitely strikes me as exceedingly lukewarm with respect to socialist issues. What are the major policy differences between the two?
There aren't any major differences - the 3 major parties are all close to the centre. The Conservatives alientated a lot of the country in the Thatcher era by stamping on the unions a bit too hard, destroying nearly all heavy industry in the process. In the space of a few years the "working class" became a small minority because people who would have been down the pits or building ships were in service industries or "higher education" jobs.
When Labour realised that socialism was no longer popular enough to get them elected they changed to "New Labour" which entailed a move towards the centre. The Conservatives realised that they needed to tone down their "ruling class" image and also moved towards the centre. The Lib Dems remained liberal and are probably the furthest left party at the moment, but not by much.
So, very similar attitudes from all three and a lot of noise about minor details. Who to trust? I don't know. Only one of them has a proven track record, which isn't brilliant; the others sound good but can they deliver?
Brian The Dog on 7/4/2010 at 10:20
Yes, but it's worth pointing out that the Conservatives clobbered the Working Class people in Britain but it didn't cost them any votes since those people all voted Labour anyway - they just really pissed off the people who didn't vote for them :ebil: Thus a party can alienate large areas of the country but still get elected for 4 terms of office!
They all are pretty similar. At this election they're mainly arguing about economic policy - the Conservatives want to cut Public Spending quite sharply if they get in, Labour has said they will do it more gently (but hence borrow more money). Dunno what the Lib Dems have said but I'm sure Stronts will tell us :)
The Lib Dems have said they will scrap the nuclear weapons (the other two parties will keep them), and also spend £300m on improving rail links (the other two parties will instead spend on a high-speed rail link between London and Birmingham). That's about the only differences I know between them!
Quote Posted by ffox
So, very similar attitudes from all three and a lot of noise about minor details. Who to trust? I don't know. Only one of them has a proven track record, which isn't brilliant; the others sound good but can they deliver?
Which of the Conservatives and Labout are you talking about? One has been in power for 13 years, the other 18 beforehand - I would have thought both would be long enough to give a track record. Or do you mean Brown hasn't been in power long enough to get a track record?
jay pettitt on 7/4/2010 at 10:41
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Do you think Labour has the country in any better of a state after however many years running the show?
Yes I do. We have a minimum wage, Sure start, schools - particularly primary schools - are demonstrably better (with children starting to learn languages at an early age for example), there's a good chance that the NHS will get around to treating you in reasonable time, Teachers and Nurses get a respectable wage. And while it may have taken them far too long - Labour have finally picked the ball up on climate change and done something substantial with it.
That said - they've still been a spectacular disappointment and the great UK unwashed aren't all happily enjoying the fruits of living in a progressive social democracy - so I'll be damned if I'm voting Labour, a bit like I didn't vote for them last time or the time before that (though I might have voted Labour in '97 - just to be sure). Running things better than conservatives (who personify willfully negligent government) is a pretty low bar.
Brian The Dog on 7/4/2010 at 12:49
There's very few socialist parties left in the UK, certainly if you actually want them to get in and do things. The only one I can think of is Respect which has 1 MP and 14 local councilors, it'll be interesting to see how they do at the election. I guess this is because Communism has fallen around the world, so there's very few communist countries left anymore for them to showcase some of the socialist ideas. Possibly the near-collapse of the banking system may make people vote for more left-wing parties, but they won't get in to power.
So who will you be voting for then jay, if you feel Labour have moved too far to the centre (they were almost centre-right under Tony, but have swung slightly back to the left under Brown)? I'm still undecided.
jay pettitt on 7/4/2010 at 12:58
Probably Lib Dem. I'd be happy to vote green (my politics are kinda socialist/democratic/grass rootsie/greenie) - but don't have a local candidate. I don't think greens are about to form a government - but I'd sure like to see some green seats in Parliament.
I'm perhaps not as impressed with LibDem this year as I have been previously - but when I clicked on their website they had a big picture of secondary school kids and a pledge to create smaller class sizes. That's an instant vote winner for me. None of those airy-fairy promises to 'fix Britain's broken society' or create a 'future fair for all' - Lib dems are just eschewing simple, effective and practical stuff that can be done.
But I live in an uber safe conservative seat - so my vote may as well go in the bin.
Something that may happen as a result of this election is the 'left' might do a bit of post New Labour resurgence - so we might well end up with a bit of social politics happening again. That'd be welcome in my book.
That and I don't really care who's in government. The idea that democracy is something you do once every 4.5 years and then dutifully go back to sleep for the interim is probably one of the reasons why UK politics isn't in a healthier state. The Grass roots level is where it's at.
ffox on 7/4/2010 at 13:07
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
Which of the Conservatives and Labout are you talking about? One has been in power for 13 years, the other 18 beforehand - I would have thought both would be long enough to give a track record. Or do you mean Brown hasn't been in power long enough to get a track record?
Apologies for not making it clear - I was talking about the leadership, not the parties. You know what to expect from Brown & Co. Can the others deliver? They say they can do better but I'm doubtful.
SD on 7/4/2010 at 13:55
Quote Posted by Thirith
In practice, what would you say are the big differences between the Conservatives and Labour?
The difference between Labour and Tory are obviously less clear cut than they are between the Labservatives and everyone else, although they still exist. I'm fairly sure raising the inheritance tax threshold to £2m isn't on Labour's agenda, for example, nor is incentivising marriage in the tax code. Similarly, the Tories aren't mega fans of Labour's obtrusive ID card scheme and have shown some interest in scrapping our human rights act.
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
SD - One area that all the parties pretty much agree on is Immigration - Radio 5 did an "interview people in the street in Manchester" which has lots of marginals nearby, and at least half said Immigration was in their 5 areas they were worried about.
I think they all agree that there are issues surrounding immigration, although only the two main parties would be inclined to capitalise on populist hysteria about immigration. Some differences: the Tories would impose strict immigration quotas every year. The Lib Dems would, recognising that immigration affects different areas in different ways, deal with immigration on a regional level, as well as permitting asylum-seekers to work while their claims are being processed.
