inselaffe on 11/5/2010 at 00:01
The tories do have a similar party, it's called new labour.
Zygoptera on 11/5/2010 at 01:04
Quote Posted by *Zaccheus*
..effectively you are saying the LibDems (and other parties) should be denied their fair share of seats because it will benefit the country.
I don't think the 3 way split would be a long term thing- PR may be a case of "be careful what you wish for" for the LibDems. The history of centrist parties is poor in PR systems as the left and right parties tend to go straight for the center ground and crowd them out unless they have a really distinctive feature, as they know that any disgruntled left/ right people will end up voting for one of their natural coalition parties (Greens/ Free Democrats in Germany; Greens/ ACT in NZ) so aren't
really lost votes. I can quite easily imagine a scenario where the LibDems end up being a relatively minor commons party, andor becoming primarily a "House of Lords"/ whatever the Upper chamber ends up called party like the Democrats in Australia, over the long to medium term under PR.
Brian The Dog on 11/5/2010 at 09:14
Quote Posted by inselaffe
The tories do have a similar party, it's called
new labour.
The great thing about New Labour (from their point of view) is that they can call themselves this when it suits them (e.g. in Marginals or in the South East) - go to deepest darkest Glasgow or Newcastle and they're perfectly happy to carry on being Old Labour. The two bits of the party then show a common face while they stab each other in the back when we're not looking (just like most parties!)
I would have thought a Lib-Con formal coalition would now be unlikely - Sir Malcom Rifkind (on the more loopy side of the Tories, but there's enough of them to kick up a stink) was on Radio 5 this morning and accused Clegg of duplicity and undertaking Mugabe-style politics. Not sure they'd happily get on in a coalition :)
jay pettitt on 11/5/2010 at 10:05
Clegg is all the things he's being accused of - including 'a bit cheeky' and 'behaving like a harlett'. But it's also true that his detractors are insanely jealous - the boy Clegg is going to town with a defibrillator on British politics the way the rest of them have only ever dreamed of ~ and let's be honest: he's a good bloke and likable enough, but he's no political mastermind. (His advantage is simply that he's got is a party with a strong constitution behind him)
What is fun is that the electorate, at some point and probably a lot sooner than 4 years away, are going to pass judgement on all this - that's what's making them all nervous; nobody knows how the electorate are going to respond.
I, for one, am rather enjoying it.
And if we're going to have a referendum on electoral reform, and I think we should have one, then it should include proportional representation - not be restricted to the limited half-option that Tories think we should be allowed to chose from. If PR is a bad thing then it's up to them to make that case to the Public.
There are real problems facing the UK and on multiple fronts. It was the Tory's election to lose yet they chose, and it was their choice, to campaign on a manifesto of bullshit. Liberals can hardly be blamed for not running to them with open arms. All eyes might be on Clegg, but I can't help feeling that they should instead be on Cameron & Co. If Rifkind and the Tories want liberal loyalty - and they do, because they're toast without it - then stepping up and offering the public a referendum that includes proper PR is all they've got to do - but they really don't want to let us have it.
---edit #423---
It's more than a little tenuous - but anyone wondering what's going on might check out the ties Clegg and Brown have been wearing for the last few days.
Matthew on 11/5/2010 at 10:27
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
I can quite easily imagine a scenario where the LibDems end up being a relatively minor commons party, andor becoming primarily a "House of Lords"/ whatever the Upper chamber ends up called party like the Democrats in Australia, over the long to medium term under PR.
To be fair, that still sounds like an increase over where they were even eight weeks ago.
Brian The Dog on 11/5/2010 at 12:31
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
But it's also true that his detractors are insanely jealous - the boy Clegg is going to town with a defibrillator on British politics the way the rest of them have only ever dreamed of
The Tories MPs have probably dreamed it in their nightmares :cheeky:
Labour have ruled out a formal alliance with the SNP, which led to the hilarious quote from Alex Salmond to say to Labour "get off your high horse, and be more conciliatory!". Also, one of the Labour cabinet ministers said off the record to the BBC "we now have a chance to really stuff the Conservatives!"
Personally I'd be astonished if LibDem and the Conservatives now have a full alliance - there's too much of a problem with trust between the leaders now. Labour & LibDem may form a minority coalition and dare the Tories to vote against them in the Queens Speech. If that happens and there is an election, then the public could find arguments to blame each of the parties, so it'd be interesting to see who they clobber the most.
Brown is not going anywhere unless a Con-Lib coalition is formed, if a Lab-Lib coalition is formed he'll be PM until Labour elect a new leader, which will be in the next few months.
jay pettitt on 11/5/2010 at 13:33
Trust has always been an issue - Tories and Liberals are ideologically opposed - a coalition would be an uncomfortable marriage formed to provide a Tory Government sufficient votes to do it's business at the expense of the Lib Dems who will be tied to what will be an unpopular regime. Lib Dems talking to Labour shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - they're absolutely entitled and obliged to consider all the options. Tories got first dibs but have so far failed to come up with a proper offer of a referendum for electoral reform that the Lib Dem parliamentary committee can vote positively upon.
Talk of duplicity is spin - of course they're duplicitous - Lib Dems have two parties to talk to. If this goes pear shaped Tories don't want to take all the heat.
Matthew on 11/5/2010 at 13:43
Rifkind in mouthy bugger shock, well I never.
R Soul on 11/5/2010 at 14:36
I admit I haven't heard what he said but surely it's better to be a mouthy bugger, and say what you think, than to pretend to be happy with the situation.
Matthew on 11/5/2010 at 14:39
It's even better to say what you think without descending into hyperbole!
