SubJeff on 9/5/2010 at 18:10
The GTFO was to ridiculous suggestion that you haven't even tried to provide evidence for SD.
And how cares what a "Tory you know" says? There are a lot of ridiculous ideas spouted by people who claim to support sensible causes. Even the BNP have some good ideas ffs. Stop thinking in black and white.
I'm broadly in support of electoral reform but I'm entitled to have concerns. The BNP only having a few seats may appear fairly benign but when those few seats swing a vote on some nonsense immigration policy, of which for example Labour have already been responsible for, then yeah I don't like the idea of them getting a say in anything.
Ulukai on 9/5/2010 at 18:14
Quote Posted by SD
Does anyone honestly think that childish catcalls from my end are not entirely appropriate in the circumstances?
Yes. One of the goals of political reform involves (
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=3) mature politics, after all.
We need a politics where debate and cooperation takes the place of confrontation and fake theatre.Why not set us an example, or is it a case of "Do As I Say" and not "Do As I Do" :p
ffox on 9/5/2010 at 19:10
Quote Posted by Ulukai
We need a politics where debate and cooperation takes the place of confrontation and fake theatre. Having watched a few Prime Minister's Question Times I reckon that statement puts the skids under Cameron. Who do you fancy for replacement Tory leader?
driver on 9/5/2010 at 19:31
Quote Posted by ffox
Having watched a few Prime Minister's Question Times I reckon that statement puts the skids under Cameron.
Indeed, so much for 'putting an end to Punch-and-Judy politics'. That one got forgotten pretty quick.
Matthew on 9/5/2010 at 19:35
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
One thing I'd like Matthew's opinion on as someone from Northern Ireland is that I guess that it'd be better for Northern Ireland that the Conservatives don't formally work with the DUP - Labour's policy of not interfering in NI politics seemed to work well over the past decade.
I would be very surprised if, after the shambolic mess that 'Conservative and Unionist Future - New Force' proved to be for the Tories, they decided to enter into a close alliance with a Northern Irish party ever again.
That said eight votes are still eight votes, so I can see the parties having an informal agreement on various matters in return for DUP support of various Tory measures.
As for whether it is better for Northern Ireland, I would say that it probably is - we have enough problems with 'them and us' politics without dragging the English parties, who of course have to negotiate with the Irish government too, into it.
Fingernail on 9/5/2010 at 21:25
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Even the BNP have some good ideas ffs. Stop thinking in black and white.
And yet you'd seek to prevent them from getting their share of representation? Democracy is fine as long as it supports a centrist/liberal agenda?
The point is that better representation is not better because it suits yours or anyone else's view of what is good for the country (after all, if you think you know best for everyone, a dictatorship is surely the way to go), but rather that it is better because it represents actual voters more accurately.
And yes, regrettably there are some people who vote BNP. But denying them a fair share of representation is unfair, BNP or not. And I personally don't know what you think their good ideas are.
SubJeff on 9/5/2010 at 22:00
How about you go read some of their ideas then.
Fingernail on 9/5/2010 at 22:01
That's funny, I still don't know which of them you think are good ones, which is what I said.
EDIT: And we don't really want to talk about the BNP do we? It's a massive distraction from the real issues at stake here.
Zygoptera on 9/5/2010 at 22:37
Quote Posted by Ulukai
Pointing at Germany or even New Zealand as shining examples of a hung parliment and saying "oh, but it works great!" is all very well but it can also form the basis of a giant clusterfuck.
The big difference is that in both Germany and NZ you have a big party of the left (Labour and the Social Democrats) and a big party of the right (National and the Christian Democrats) rather than three parties of roughly equal size as would be the case in the UK under a PR system. Big party-little party coalitions are fairly stable as there is no question who really wears the trousers, the a smaller left/rightist party is always going to compromise to get a left/rightist government in the end. In a more or less even three way split things could definitely get Italy-style problematic very quickly, and very persistently.
In any case if you do go PR don't let the politicos foist MMP on you as they did here, it's a dreadful system that codifies all power amongst the party hierachy even more so than FPP does. Go for Single Transferable Vote or an equivalent where your local MP at least has some minor theoretical vestiges of independence.
jay pettitt on 10/5/2010 at 16:12
Talks with the Tory party seem to be struggling, Brown just announced that he's to resign, Labour entering into formal talks with the Nick Clegg party...[/live blogging]
---
What I'm wondering, keeping in mind what Zygoptera has just said, is whether, if it happened, a 'progressive alliance' of Labour and Lib dems might not end up being (hide your ears Stronts) a permanent arrangement.
