SD on 9/5/2010 at 15:01
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Lib-Dems are being pigheaded about PR imho. The Tories have agreed to an review of the system so they should get on board.
Gosh, yes, how dare we try to reform an electoral system that ensures power resides in the hands of a few thousand swing voters and the vast majority of votes are wasted!
The Tory proposed "review of the system" is a meaningless sop designed to shut us up.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
fringe idiots, like the BNP, will benefit from [PR]
Not necessarily.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
With PR we'll almost always have to have coalition governments and this in itself has pros and cons. My feeling is it's mostly a bad thing though.
Germany has had a hung parliament since 1949. It is far and away the strongest economy in Europe. Subjeffail.
ilweran on 9/5/2010 at 15:16
Quote Posted by quinch
I read that Brighton's Green MP, the SNP, the non-unionists of Northern Ireland and the Welsh Nationalists could tip the balance.
ahem...so everyone plus the kitchen sink!
Worth a shot when the stakes are this high. Even some Torys must be sick of tactical voting.
EDIT:- I doubt the National parties would scupper any chance of PR when the public are crying out for it. Maybe it's a fool's hope.
Scotland and Wales didn't vote for a Tory government, though on the other hand without the current system it's possible Wales wouldn't have voted for the Assembly and Plaid want more powers devolved to WAG.
The only minor thing I'm quite pleased about in relation to the election is that in the Rhondda the Tories came in fifth :laff:
ffox on 9/5/2010 at 15:33
Quote Posted by Ulukai
So, any bets on how long it takes until unelected simpleton Gordon gets the message and fucks right off as Labour party leader?
He can't go yet, even if he wants to. (
http://tinyurl.com/28a5rtv) See here.
Chimpy Chompy on 9/5/2010 at 15:42
Quote Posted by SD
Subjeffail.
Oh grow up.
Anyway
Quote Posted by brian the dog
I'm just a bit worried that the Lib Dem + Labour would have such a small majority they wouldn't be able to do anything about the economy.
Yeah, right now I'm more worried about the economy than our voting system, for all the problems the latter has. I think whatever government we have is going to be forced to make some unpopular decisions. Which weak coalitions stuck with a tiny minority, infighting and horse-trading will struggle to push through.
Ulukai on 9/5/2010 at 16:05
Quote Posted by SD
Germany has had a hung parliament since 1949. It is far and away the strongest economy in Europe. Subjeffail.
What. Even Nick Clegg didn't resort to appending "you Gaylord" onto the end of his rebukes in the televised debates.
Anyway, you're going to have to come up with more than a single blade of greener grass. Does it look good from this side of the bridge? Be careful. Be
very careful.
What works for Germany doesn't necessarily work for the UK. They have (
http://www.rogerdarlington.me.uk/Germanpoliticalsystem.html) a system designed to prevent the rise of another Adolf Hitler, currently in conjunction with a hung parliment.
Pointing at Germany or even New Zealand as shining examples of a hung parliment and saying "oh, but it works great!" is all very well but it can also form the basis of a giant clusterfuck. This being the UK, I'm leaning towards the latter outcome, so I remain unconvinced that a more proportional representation, which would lead to more of this kind of thing, is the right solution for the UK.
Quote Posted by ffox
He [Gordon] can't go yet, even if he wants to.
I realise that, but I'm betting he'll not want to step down as Labour Party leader when the dust has settled without some sort of push.
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Yeah, right now I'm more worried about the economy than our voting system, for all the problems the latter has.
Quite. This is the uber number one priority for the incoming government, and if the issue of proportional representation needs to be put to one side by the Lib Dems then so be it. There's more at stake here right now than a party line.
Namdrol on 9/5/2010 at 16:37
While Gordon Brown has a constitutional obligation to remain PM he can declare himself to be just holding an interim caretaker position.
If the man had an ounce of integrity he should announce that he will stand aside for whoever the Labour party chose to succeed him as leader of the party
And every objection to PR seems to be based on blinkered fear and the attitude that it may be ok for Johnny Foreigner but it's just not British don't you know.
SubJeff on 9/5/2010 at 16:42
Quote Posted by SD
Gosh, yes, how dare we try to reform an electoral system that ensures power resides in the hands of a few thousand swing voters and the vast majority of votes are wasted!
Stop frothing. I agree with you that PR is a more representative and democratic solution. I just don't know that it will work so well here. It's like democracy in Africa - look at the problems that surround it (I'm not saying they
arise from it). Dictatorships there are sometimes more stable.
Quote Posted by SD
Not necessarily.
But likely. The simple fact that the BNP could have won seats (depending on which type of PR you use) in this election vs them getting none under the current system doesn't worry you at all? I'm all for a bit of the old Voltaire but sometimes I'm just not so sure, especially when there is hint that nutters will benefit.
Quote Posted by SD
Subjeffail.
.
Is it the end of first period yet?
Fingernail on 9/5/2010 at 17:10
yet GTFO is acceptable?
Just because one thing isn't perfect doesn't mean we should settle for something that is worse!
And the whole point of Voltaire's oft-quoted statement is that you should support the BNP's right to say what they like - not that you only support things you can countenance. Unfortunate, but accurate.
SD on 9/5/2010 at 17:11
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Oh grow up.
I'll come back with a cleverer response when someone presents an adult argument against electoral reform. Helpful hint: "my gut feeling" isn't one. Helpful hint 2: neither is "GTFO".
Quote Posted by Namdrol
And every objection to PR seems to be based on blinkered fear and the attitude that it may be ok for Johnny Foreigner but it's just not British don't you know.
A Tory I know actually used that argument. I shit you not. This is an
exact quote from him:
I know that PR works in other countries, but other countries are foreign.This is the best that the anti-fairness, anti-freedom brigade can do. Does anyone honestly think that childish catcalls from my end are not entirely appropriate in the circumstances?
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The simple fact that the BNP could have won seats (depending on which type of PR you use) in this election vs them getting none under the current system doesn't worry you at all?
Why in Christ's name should it? People should get what they vote for, if they elect 6 BNP MPs in a Parliament of 600, I'll live with that!
Starrfall on 9/5/2010 at 17:21
Maybe it's just my uppity american roots (we had a big old fight about this sort of thing about 230 years or so ago, didn't we?), but the idea that because the economy sucks it's ok to continue to have such a failure of representation that your government is distorted to the tune of 70-90 seats is just so mindboggling. If I'm the Lib Dems in this situation, I'd fight for a fix tooth and nail.
HOWEVER I will readily admit that I don't really know shit about the details of the current situation over there, or about how hard it'd be to try to deal with your economy and the representation thing at the same time, or about how hung parliments tend to function (or fail to function, as the case may be) in real life, so this is admittedly a very superficial observation and maybe if I knew more I'd see the balance tipping the other way. But superficially, it seems clear that fixing your system is so fundamentally necessary and right that there just isn't an excuse for delaying action.
(Not even the fact that the BNP will get seats too, but that's a somewhat different rant.)
