faetal on 30/6/2015 at 21:04
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Outside of the strongly religious marriage is kind of a massive "whatever" in America. The Post Vietnam-era left is still heavily influenced by the "marriage is slavery" meme that was popular in the 60's, and a lot of those on the right are gravitating towards the MRA bullshit, whose followers believe that marriage is nothing more than a way for women to take 50% of your stuff and future earnings. Both view marriage as nothing more than a disposable commodity, and for both camps marriage is good for nothing more than social validation of your sexual activity.
Granted we're talking about outliers but the trend as a whole is that people want to get married less and less. Even HuffPo acknowledges it: (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/helen-smith/8-reasons-men-dont-want-t_b_3467778.html)
Marriage is whatever people want it to be. Religion no longer owns it, neither does the government. The administrative bit is just a recording process. No one is instructing me how to be married and if I want out of it (I don't), there is a divorce process. It's a ritual. Social animals are pretty fond of rituals - they tickle a part of our brain which contextualises and solidifies things. Not getting married is a valid choice, as is not being interested in marriage, but people deciding who gets married or how they do it? They can go do a running fuck.
SD on 30/6/2015 at 23:15
Quote Posted by faetal
The UK won't remain free for long either. The private health industry which has been looking to crack open the UK market for decades has finally got a foot hold with the 2011 Health & Social Care act.
No, this is untrue. Private provision grew half as fast under the coalition as it did under Labour. 0.25% a year versus 0.5% a year.
Quote Posted by faetal
The vast majority of new contracts are going to private providers
This is also untrue. I understand it to be around one third. But even that is misleading, as that relates to the
number of contracts, not their value, and it tends to be smaller contracts that are awarded to the private sector.
Context: the value of outsourcing grew from 4.4% under Labour to 5.9% under the coalition.
Quote Posted by faetal
and real terms funding is being gradually reduced
I can't speak for a Tory government with no Lib Dem involvement, but this, again, is certainly untrue so far as the coalition is concerned. Real terms healthcare funding grew - not by much, but it did rise.
Phatose on 1/7/2015 at 03:12
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Also, for anyone who keeps talking about how great the ACA is and how wonderful it's been for American Healthcare.
Go fuck yourselves. I'm looking for new insurance now as some of my old benefits expire soon, and I'm currently looking at a household income in the low 20's for the year since I'm starting school.
The prices are ridiculous( $400 USD+ monthly) for two healthy people in their 20's, for coverage benefits that are extremely shitty compared to what they were a few years ago. We're talking copays in excess of $1000 per visit with no vision or dental, and a relatively limited provider selection.
For the people who don't understand how someone could possibly be against the ACA, I've got three words for you.
Try it sometimeThis ruling is going to go down in history alongside Wickard v. Filburn as one of the most crappy, most politically motivated rulings in American history.
I actually did.
Didn't really have a whole lot of choice in the matter. After 3 consecutive years - pre ACA - of the premiums on my employer's health care plan increasing 25% each year, when the exchanges opened, the employee health care plan went away. Didn't have a point - it wasn't actually saving people money.
Co-pays and coverage are about the same as they were for me. If you buy the absolute bottom tier, you're going to get big co-pays. That's hardly new.
Course, it's had rather major benefits, too. Not too long after the exchange went into effect I was diagnosed with a very serious long term neurological disease. Which is exactly the kind of thing they would drop you for if it all possible, and if for any reason you lost your coverage - well, pre-existing condition, not covered.
It's not been all rainbows - insurance companies still try to deny claims as a matter of course. That's not new though, my dad died of the same disease over a decade ago, and I got a real good look at the insurance companies doing just that well before the ACA.
Course, now I'm stuck worrying about 'conservatives' trying to repeal the ACA, thus removing my coverage - and removing the law preventing new coverage from denying care for my preexisting condition. Elections have become quite literally a life or death matter for me.
Tony_Tarantula on 1/7/2015 at 13:29
Quote Posted by heywood
OK, but health care costs in the US have been rising faster than the larger economy for 30-35 years. If the ACA had never been enacted, you still would have seen higher premiums and fewer providers year after year, because that was the long term trend. The ACA does not fix the cost growth problem, but it didn't cause it either. Until we can get the cost growth problem under control, every health care system is going to suck.
Already addressed. From previous materials, they've estimated that the costs are rising 20% faster with ACA than they would have without it.
Quote:
Course, now I'm stuck worrying about 'conservatives' trying to repeal the ACA, thus removing my coverage - and removing the law preventing new coverage from denying care for my preexisting condition. Elections have become quite literally a life or death matter for me.
How many times do I have to say this?
"Conservatives" have no genuine interest in repealing ACA despite the noise they make in public. They had even drafted legislation to save the ACA exchanges in the event the Supreme Court ruled against it.
Quote:
Co-pays and coverage are about the same as they were for me. If you buy the absolute bottom tier, you're going to get big co-pays. That's hardly new.
I don't think you understand exactly how bad they are. Nowadays to get any cop-pay that is under 5 grand would require me to spend over $400/month AFTER subsidies. How are you supposed to pay on a yearly income of under $20 grand, all of which is both unearned income from a university housing benefit and compensation for previous on the job injuries?
You can't. If anything happens I have to declare bankruptcy. Previously I could have gotten a copay half that for just over $100/month without any subsidies.
Tony_Tarantula on 1/7/2015 at 13:40
Quote Posted by faetal
Marriage is whatever people want it to be. Religion no longer owns it, neither does the government. The administrative bit is just a recording process. No one is instructing me how to be married and if I want out of it (I don't), there is a divorce process. It's a ritual. Social animals are pretty fond of rituals - they tickle a part of our brain which contextualises and solidifies things. Not getting married is a valid choice, as is not being interested in marriage, but people deciding who gets married or how they do it? They can go do a running fuck.
More or less what it's turning into, but I also think you're not thinking as far ahead as you could. When marriage turns into that there is now nothing preventing the emergence of a Polygamous society....even legally, as the reasoning used by the Supreme Court allows Polygamy.
A legal challenge in that direction is more or less inevitable, even if there wasn't an emerging polygamy equality movement.
If the west moves in that direction it will have some consequences that aren't immediately apparent unless you've actually spent some significant time living and working in polygamous societies. The first one is that it tends to be extremely harmful to a majority of males. It typically becomes a sexual pyramid where a few extremely wealthy or socially dominant (aka "alpha") males control a majority of women. Another related issue is that women tend to become heavily commoditized.
Something I've personally witnessed is that a woman can have a pricetag that is dependent upon her looks. The better a girl looks the higher her dowry will be, which can make having beautiful daughters a profitable proposition for whatever old Jordanian or Arabic fart is making the daughters.
Take a look around. Societies without monogamous marriage tend to have a very real "rape culture"...not the douchebag fratbro "rape culture" US feminists love to bleat about but actual, bona fide rape culture where women are regarded as property.
You don't even have to go to the Middle East to see about it, it's right here in America: read some of the stories that come from Polygamous Mormon enclaves.
From the University of British Columbia:
(
http://news.ubc.ca/2012/01/23/monogamy-reduces-major-social-problems-of-polygamist-cultures/)
Quote:
Monogamous marriage has largely preceded democracy and voting rights for women in the nations where it has been institutionalized, says Henrich, the Canadian Research Chair in Culture, Cognition and Evolution in UBC's Depts. of Psychology and Economics. By decreasing competition for younger and younger brides, monogamous marriage increases the age of first marriage for females, decreases the spousal age gap and elevates female influence in household decisions which decreases total fertility and increases gender equality
So basically, give it 100 years and the widespread acceptance of the idea that marriage is whatever you feel like it is could very well have turned out to be the death-knell of equal gender rights.
faetal on 1/7/2015 at 13:48
So basically the slippery slope argument? If marriage becomes something other than 1 man + 1 woman, this will enable men to enslave women via polygamy. You even managed to trivialise the "douchebag rape culture" you've almost certainly never been a victim of, which is I guess not surprising. You should probably just put it in your signature and save some keystrokes.
Tony_Tarantula on 1/7/2015 at 14:09
Quote Posted by faetal
So basically the slippery slope argument? If marriage becomes something other than 1 man + 1 woman, this will enable men to enslave women via polygamy. You should probably just put it in your signature and save some keystrokes.
No.
You're falling into the dialectic trap of lumping direct causations and strong correlations in with a vague "slippery slope". The Supreme Court decision effectively guts the remaining arguments against polygamy, for the reasons why are currently being discussed endlessly in the media so it's not worth repeating here.
As to what it does to women, the historical correlation between polygamy and poor gender rights is so strong that to call it a "slippery slope" argument would be intellectually dishonest.
(
http://news.ubc.ca/2012/01/23/monoga...mist-cultures/)
You know better than I do that in the world of hard science that the appearance of a consistently strong correlation merits further investigation and can not be ignored as mere coincidence(or a "slippery slope). It's no different for social sciences.
Quote:
You even managed to trivialise the "douchebag rape culture" you've almost certainly never been a victim of, which is I guess not surprising.
1) Yes Frats have issues. In reality they're are they're pretty fucking tame to what exists in many areas of the world......especially in polygamous cultures. The stories about women being stoned to death because they didn't prevent their own rapes are real, and much more in line with what life in those societies is like for women than you'd think. US Fraternities don't even come close to that.
2)Your comments are particularly rich coming from someone who doesn't even live on the American continent. Exactly how much experience do you have with Fraternity "douchebag" culture besides what you see on TV?
Tony_Tarantula on 1/7/2015 at 14:14
Hell, here's from SLATE, one of the most liberal news publications out there, explaining why it's not a "slippery slope" and is causitive:
(
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/01/the_problem_with_polygamy.html)
Quote:
That polygyny is bad for women is not necessarily intuitive. As economist Robert H. Frank has pointed out women in polygynist marriages should have more power because they’re in greater demand, and men should wind up changing more diapers. But historically, polygamy has proved to be yet another setup that screws the XX set. Because there are never enough of them to go around, they wind up being married off younger. Brothers and fathers, realizing how valuable their female relations are, tend to control them more. And, as one would expect, polygynous households foster jealousy and conflict among co-wives. Ethnographic surveys of 69 polygamous cultures “reveals no case where co-wife relations could be described as harmonious,” Henrich writes, with what must be a good dose of understatement.
Children, too, appear to suffer in polygamous cultures. Henrich examines a study comparing 19th-century Mormon households, 45 of them headed by wealthy men, generally with multiple wives, and 45 headed by poorer men, generally with one wife each. What’s surprising is that the children of the poorer men actually fared better, proving more likely to survive to age 15. Granted, this is a small study, but it’s consistent with other studies, including one from Africa showing that the children of monogamous households tend to do better than those from polygynous households in the same communities. Why? Some scholars suspect that polygyny may discourage paternal investment. Men with lots of children and wives are spread too thin, and to make things worse, they’re compiling resources to attract their next wives instead of using it on their existing families.
Must polygamy always bring these social ills? Is it possible to be polygamous in a way that’s good for you and everyone else? Maybe. Historically, problems have cropped up when polygamy is widespread in a culture with great disparities in wealth, and a few men hoard all the women. But it has worked in small cultures where there aren’t a lot of differences in wealth and status. Coontz points to past Native American societies that occasionally engaged in what’s known as sororal polygyny, in which a man married to one woman might also marry her sister, perhaps after the sister’s husband died.
To zoom in on one section
Quote:
Historically, problems have cropped up when polygamy is widespread in a culture with great disparities in wealth, and a few men hoard all the women. But it has worked in small cultures where there aren’t a lot of differences in wealth and statusIn terms of the available research, what outcome is more likely to result in Western Society? A "culture with great disparities in wealth" is one of the defining aspects of America.
Muzman on 1/7/2015 at 17:18
I only skimmed these things, but they seem to make the common mistake when discussing polygamy- that it being on the table will return to patriarchal systems where a man can marry as many women as he wants and so will hoard the women, essentially.
They're forgetting that in an open system where polygamy is permitted (thanks to an inability to restrict things like same sex unions) the women will be able to have as many husbands/wives as they like too. Potentially producing baffling "spousal webs" which I think would be kind of amazing to see.
But much depends on what incentives or disincentives beyond the license might crop up, I suspect.
It's a fair comment that putting polygamy back on the table could mean a resurgence of some 'traditional' social forms that haven't quite gone away and aren't all that good. And that these can enforce their patriarchal mores in the way they always have. But it's not the only thing out there.