Pyrian on 13/8/2016 at 23:52

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So, what do you feel didn't work?

qolelis on 14/8/2016 at 12:22

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Spoilers ahead:
I liked having to figure things out on my own, although you did test my patience a bit; I was about to give up, but then I learned the spells and could use them to control my minions, and progress. I like those moments of suddenly getting how things connect. I liked the concept of non-language-specific communication in the "billboards", and the (concept of the) non-verbal communication between the player and his/her minions, although I didn't always get what the minions' exclamations meant.

What I didn't like was how many things seemed to be happening randomly, for example the plant, found below the "flower-totem", which suddenly started to grow and I could never figure out what caused it or if I could control its growth, or the new animals (like the snake and the rabbit) suddenly appearing; I did understand their function, like the snake being an enemy to my children, but only after it had started eating them. Maybe you could explain the function of the snakes the same way you explained the other things (like the function of the rabbits)!?

The large "billboards" were obscuring a large portion of the landscape and in one case even one of the totems (the one where I could sacrifice a rabbit), so I kind of missed what was happening when I "used" that totem. Maybe you could make them appear only when the player calls for them (and be hidden otherwise)!? I first interpreted the arrows on the billboards as a change of direction instead of the correct change in time, so that confused me for a while.

I felt like there was a slight lack of feedback -- or feedback that I could understand -- when having done something that felt important, like managing to make a minion deliver something, or when controlling a minion which was out of sight. Maybe you could make the minions respond somehow (or, if they already do, make it clearer that that is what they are doing) when I give them a command, so the player knows what's happening even when s/he cannot see the minions!?

A lot of things were happening at the same time, and, especially on such a small (visible) playfield, it got a little messy and hard to see what was going on.

I played for 50 minutes until all my children had been eaten by snakes, which I never figured out how to stop, but maybe I could have simply called for them, so that they could run away from a nearby snake, although I didn't realize that the snakes were enemies or even that they were snakes -- or even that they had appeared -- before it was too late to react. Another thing with the snakes: Can they eat my children even when out of sight? If so, that seems a bit unfair -- unless a child near a snake calls out to me, so that I get a chance to react before it gets eaten.

Once I had learned the spells, I had some fun with it, but I was also kind of constantly confused about what was going on and why.
I gather it would take a few failed rounds (where all the player's children die) to understand how everything works -- and use it to my advantage -- which, I think, not everyone would be willing to go through, so, in its current state, it could be a game only for the diehards (which is perfectly fine if that is what you meant for it to be).

demagogue on 15/8/2016 at 05:17

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http://i66.tinypic.com/106lkpl.jpg

I thought it was a fine little game.
The signs were enough to gather what was going on.
(NB, sometimes a sign covered up a pillar, as you can see in this screenshot, so it's hard to see it. If you ever update anything, that's the one thing I'd change.)
The mechanic could work because you could do tasks sequentially.
You figure out one sequence, basically spam it until you get enough of whatever its for, then move on to the next & spam that, etc.
And that was pretty much good enough for a strategy.
It's not a bad thing. It was the game's saving grace. If you'd had to coordinate commands quickly & precisely that would have been maddening.
But being able to casually play around until you got something, and then game or spam it, worked out for this game.

As for "lessons learned" advice, I think indirect control of minions works best for a game (Lemmings, Dwarf Fortress, some of Warcraft) *if* it's not a direct job you need from them, but if it's more like setting up a situation where statistically you're getting what you need over time, but otherwise they do their thing. If you need a direct job done, it can push the frustration button. This game skirted the line, since actually you could just set things up so statistically you get what you want if you herded them, and once you got the hang of it, it was straightforward to get one to do a direct job (pick up a specific thing and take it to a specific place) but maybe early on, before you get that, you want to get the thing & move it to the place, and get frustrated trying to figure out how. It never personally bothered me though since I'm a patient personality and I figured the mechanic the signs were suggesting had to work because that's the whole game. I guess the ultimate lesson is this kind of game is made for that kind of patient personality.

demagogue on 15/8/2016 at 08:27

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If it's any consolation, it's still not as aimless and maddening as henke's In Search of Paradise, haha. :B
Well maybe they're different flavors of aimless & bewildering.

I was also one of the few people that beat that too. I guess I'm a sucker to complete games with minimal guidance if I know they're completeable at all. In henke's game, you were never even sure until the end that it even was completeable, which was part of its charm. With your's it's at least apparent you can make progress somehow. I personally liked both of your games for what they were.

But then I also completed bewildering C64 games like Shogun when I was a kid, which was famously obscure (or Rags to Riches, Mercenary, Rasputin, etc, the C64 had a whole stable of games where it wasn't clear what to do.) Obscure games are a legit & storied genre, and criticism aside it's worth having them in the field, like the bitter stuff they put in Thai food that wake you up. Well I like them at times.

qolelis on 17/8/2016 at 13:15

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The main thing for me was the (perceived) lack of feedback. I think adding small rewards would have helped with understanding what's going on and with motivating the player to continue. I'm not sure how to do that, though (I leave that to you ;) ).

When I was using a spell, it took me a while before I realized that it had an effect on the world around me, so making that clearer would be a good start for me:

-The spell for calling my minions was the easiest to understand -- I think I got that pretty much right away -- probably because the minions then immediately started walking towards me, so they would sooner or later show up both on the visible playfield and close to me, so it wasn't too hard to draw the right conclusions (although I think that could probably be emphasized).

-The spells for picking things up took longer to understand, because the minions then started walking towards the sought after object, which easily made them leave the visible playfield, so I couldn't see what they were doing -- unless I happened to be close to the object they were walking towards. This was a problem even when I had a good guess for what the spell was for (after having seen the signs), because I hadn't yet gotten a clear confirmation of its effect (it's kind of like a game of guessing and second guessing; if my first guess isn't confirmed, I might move on to a second guess, and risk marking the first one as incorrect, even if it weren't (while this could be an interesting mechanic in itself, it might not be what you want your game to be about)).

What about proximity: do the minions react to a command only if they are close enough to the player? I got the feeling they were (as suggested by the reach of the yellow cloud thing), but at the same time I wasn't sure if that was always the case, so that was another thing I had to guess and second guess about. If proximity is a thing, then, obviously, a spell will sometimes have an effect and sometimes not, which makes it harder to get the needed confirmation, and draw the correct conclusion, about what a spell does, because we now have two uncertainties, which might be one too many: is the spell not working because I have guessed its function incorrectly or because it works only under certain, yet unknown, circumstances?

Also, what Al_B wrote. That is, I gather, the tried and trusted way, so it's probably the safer route, but that's not to say that it's impossible to break a few rules; it's just, as always when trying to break new ground, harder to get right and a bit of a gamble (it can end in great success, but also utter failure).

I should add that I never usually play this kind of game (it's kind of not my thing), so I'm going in more or less blind, and am probably not representing your intended audience very well at all. I should also add that it isn't all without merit: it's a cute game about a parent (single parent? (hello social commentary :p )) and his/her adorable kids who just want to help out (and sacrifice innocent, fluffly animals to a bloodthirsty god *oops*). I like the concept, and, although I think the execution could be improved upon, I had some fun with it -- and I think someone who usually play this kind of game could have even more fun with a potential(?) next version.

Edit:
Does it matter if I sacrifice rabbits or flowers (i.e. are there any, like, moral consequences)? Maybe choosing the blood route produces more snakes to eat my kids, while choosing the non-violent route produces something else!? That would certainly add yet another unknown factor, though.