ICEBreaker on 26/6/2002 at 03:43

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King Ronald, read (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51263) Picasso's post. He explained everything there. I think it is pretty obvious why it is unrealistic. Simply put, one cannot get a line of sight from two guns.

I will also consider three different types of using dual pistols.

Double rate of ammo discharge over single target - The aim falls dramatically by around half and the amount of bullets used is doubled. In other words, it is a waste of ammo. Time required to hit target is the same as using only one weapon. A skilled marksman only needs one single shot to matter. People should concentrate on getting that one shot rather then doing some fancy moves.

Two targets simultaneously - No one can actually aim at two targets at the same time because we cannot focus on two different objects at the same time. The accuracy of peripheral aiming drops tremendously to say below 1/4. The justification for this technique is to aim in the general area of two or more threats while firing wildly so that they have to duck for cover and cannot engage temporarily. This gives the akimbo user a chance to escape or cover his colleague.

Two targets individual aiming - In a situation where two or more targets are spread out on the left and right, the theory is that moving one's arm from the left side to the right side takes too long. So one can carry two pistols, one for left side and one for the right. One only needs to move their head to aim, which is faster than moving the pistol. This method requires total commitment because one has completely exposed himself and there will be no chance to duck for cover. The risk is extreme and unacceptable. If one misses, the opponent would have the opportunity to counter. The only time this method is justified is if it is critical to eliminate all tangos within the shortest possible time (to stop them from detonating a bomb or killing a hostage etc) and no other alternatives exist.

Law enforcement and the military spend countless hours perfecting their skills of combat. There is nothing that any civilian can come up with which they have not considered and either pursued or rejected. There are obviously good reasons why none of them are trained with the akimbo. All it does is give ignorant cinema audience a thrill.

King Ronald on 26/6/2002 at 17:55

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Listen to Amorpheus, he speaks sense. I don't particulary CARE if you think that I'm an ignorant cinema goer - we are talking about a sci-fi computer game! If you want to arse about with a single shot multi-tool or whatever then FINE> good for you! If I wish to spend my time arsing around with two pistols - then FINE> good for me! The next time I have to shoot an international terrorist in a top-secret robot factory, then I'll take your comments into consideration, and will concentrate on running away, saving my own ass and perhaps firing blindly behind me in the sheer terror of the end of my existence. Faced with a similar situation in a COMPUTER GAME, which I play for relaxation and fun, then since I am armed with a quick save, health regeneration and god mode, then I can simply throw crates at the knob whilst blasting with pistols akimbo. In fact, if i WANT TO, then I'll just activate bloomin' "noclip" and fly over the "Tango's" head! Maybe I'll turn invisible as well! The fact is is that IN REAL LIFE - i.e NOT Deus Ex - then I would rather not be involved in gun-fights with people who want to kill me. I don't really see why you get so down on a bit of fun blasting action between work and sleep. End rant.

ICEBreaker on 27/6/2002 at 05:41

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Ronald, first you wanted to know why it is unrealistic to shoot with two pistols. Then when I spend the time to explain it to you as per your request, you consider realism to be irrelevant and decided to reply in a hostile tone. Your argument for using dual pistols is akin to someone who adds their favourite chilli sauce to whatever food they eat, including fine French cuisine. Science fiction is an attempt to simulate a realistic environment based on a world with an alternative technological background. You seem to have this misconception that science fiction is fantasy; it is not. Deus Ex was a game that took realism seriously. The attention to weapon characteristics (recoil, reload time, accuracy, range etc), the consideration of the skills involved with aiming (skill points, wobbly gun sights etc), and the evidence of basic weapons research involved with in-game weapons design (ammo names and characteristics etc), all points to a noticeable effort for combat realism in the game. Deus Ex's vision is to create a realistic simulation of the world in 2052. Adding dual pistols is incompatible with that vision. It is not simply a matter of what you want your character to be. It is a matter of how the character can be customised within the boundaries of the game vision. Simply put, Deus Ex is not the type of game that should have akimbo. Save that for point-and-shoot genre like Doom 3. I would be sorely disappointed if DX2 has dual pistols just because some gamers cannot appreciate good marksmanship.

King Ronald on 27/6/2002 at 17:29

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Exactly.


Amorpheus, you speak with a rational mind.

Picasso on 29/6/2002 at 00:16

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Note beforehand: It is NOT unrealistic to use two pistols. It IS unrealistic to use those two pistols effectively, and I'm trying to convey that.

Alright, here's my proposed system. I touched on this earlier, but this is a little more indepth:

A player can use the character/inventory screen to equip two pistols (ANY two pistols), and run around with them pointed forward on the screen in front of him. When a player has two pistols equipped:

- The player's reload time is tripled.
- The player has a much lower maximum accuracy (the gap in the crosshairs will be significant, no matter how long you stand there to steady them)
- The player's accuracy gain is much lower (the crosshairs close together much more slowly).
- Both main mouse buttons are bound to different pistols. There's not much point to a "use item in world" key if both your hands are full. This means that one pistol can be fired independently of the other.

It just occured to me that laser sights would be the ideal weapon mods for dual pistols. One of the main points of laser sights (in real life, not like DX1's laser sights) is that they don't require you to look down the sights in order to aim the gun properly, and the inability to look down the sights is the huge drawback of using two pistols. I don't know how well you'd be able to keep track of which laser dot belongs to which gun, though... perhaps if they were made different colors. They have lasers in other colors, don't they?

Anyway, since pistols are semi-automatic, this would correspond to one shot fired for every click of the mouse. You couldn't simply hold down both buttons, you'd be clicking for each bullet individually.

A while ago I said:



Let me reassure you that I was exaggerating here: I don't want people to necessarily be quite that good with dual pistols. If dual pistols could really be that good, there wouldn't be much point in carrying just one (from a gameplay perspective).

Yes, there's that gameplay word again. I'll say once again that the important thing is to strike a balance between gameplay and realism. We have to remember the setting that all this is taking place in, and that setting can allow realism to be stretched for the sake of gameplay.

The Rainbow Six series never let you carry more than one pistol. They said that it's not realistic to use more than one pistol, so we won't let you. But DX is a bit more open-ended than that. I think that DX should be saying "We'll let you use two pistols if you want to, but remember that you're still constrained by an appropriate amount of reality".

If someone wants to use dual pistols from an extremely close range (<10 feet) or just to provide suppressive fire, or just because they think it'd be cool, then I say let them. But to say that "You can't do it because people normally wouldn't", or "You can't do it because it wouldn't be that effective", well, that's just telling people how they should play, and that doesn't make sense to me.