Thirith on 13/3/2018 at 18:51
I don't know what the parameters are, but I've watched a fair number of videos where the AI seemed to do some pretty smart, effective things. Some of it is tied to the AI settings, though, and I've not turned those up all the way for our sessions. Perhaps I'll raise the AI skill and lower their accuracy to see how that'll work out.
Even if I did, though, you'd still get units acting as stupidly as you describe, and more often than you'd wish.
Pyrian on 13/3/2018 at 20:01
It really is a lot easier to make an AI do something smart than it is to prevent it from doing something dumb, nevermind preventing it from doing ANYTHING dumb. "Never be an idiot" might be the most technically challenging AI requirement ever asked for. It's pretty easy for me to imagine an algorithm that might make a coordinated flanking action possible but still ignore someone shooting at their back. Maybe he thought he had good cover? Maybe he was focused on preventing a flanking maneuver from the other direction?
Neb on 13/3/2018 at 20:27
I'm playing Templar Battleforce right now, and when one of the enemies is blocking a chokepoint en route to your defenses, the rest of the swarm start taking the long way around to get into melee range because they're too dumb to anticipate that the blocking AI has its turn last, and that the best strategy is to wait until next turn to spill through.
Malleus on 13/3/2018 at 20:36
The best AI I've ever seen was your teammates in Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter for the PC. I'd actually consider it experimental. Your teammates were quite autonomous, and very good at reacting to the situations and deciding what to do. Too good, in fact, and the biggest problem with them was it was kind of difficult to order them around. You'd send them to a certain spot, and they'd be like "nah, that cover nearby is way better, I'll go there". But apart from some derpy moments they were really good, in my experience. The devs changed it in the sequel due to complaints, which ended up having standard "do exactly what you tell them" AI.
Nameless Voice on 13/3/2018 at 21:16
Quote Posted by Pyrian
"Never be an idiot" might be the most technically challenging AI requirement ever asked for.
Even humans can't manage that.
Pyrian on 13/3/2018 at 22:54
"That AI just stood there with his back to us while I was shooting at him!"
"At least he didn't forget he was still guiding a missile and bring it down on his teammate."
Pyrian on 14/3/2018 at 03:36
They certainly have some great qualities, but if we come full circle to the idea of being smart enough combatants to make up for not being damage sponges - I'm going to say no, they don't make that hurdle.
catbarf on 14/3/2018 at 19:25
The bar for 'smarter' AI isn't particularly high at the moment. Wildlands' AI actually impresses me for the same reason FEAR's does: the enemies are mobile. So many FPSes have enemies hop into cover and stay there, turning it essentially into a game of whack-a-mole where you flank around to find the optimal cover-denying angle and then shoot.
In FEAR, the enemies don't actually coordinate, but their AI uses a 'priority' system where characters have different goals that their AI tries to execute. If they suddenly can't see you anymore, their goal to take cover in the face of immediate threat gets outweighed by their goal to move up, and so they redeploy. You can drop back from an encounter and take a flanking route, only to find that none of the enemies are where they left them. Some are now behind new cover that provides protection from your maneuver, while others are performing a flanking maneuver of their own. As far as 'smoke and mirrors' goes, it's simple in concept but it works brilliantly.
Wildlands takes the same idea and applies it to a much more lethal combat system, so that if you're not paying attention it's easy to get flanked and taken out by a single enemy. The AI may not be particularly intelligent in most respects, but taking initiative rather than just responding to what the player does makes it unpredictable and dangerous.
I don't think we need super-complex AI to make a more compelling experience, it just seems like AI is often treated like either an afterthought, or a Skinner box where specific stimuli go in and predictable results come out. That certainly works for some games (most stealth games would be a lot harder if enemies weren't predictable), but for shooters I can't think of any recent titles that have advertised intelligent, unpredictable AI as a core feature.
Yakoob on 15/3/2018 at 05:57
The goal of good AI is not to be smart, but to be a fun challenge for the player
Thirith on 15/3/2018 at 06:43
It's why behaviour and accuracy should be decoupled (and perhaps it is most of the time). Creating an AI that never misses a shot isn't particularly fun, whereas an AI that flanks you, that surprises you (and that may be smoke and mirrors, but if they're done well I don't think that's a problem).
And it's not just shooters. As much as I've enjoyed the Civilization games I've played, the AI has never been particularly good. What's worse, though, is that when you turn up the difficulty, the AI doesn't get better in terms of strategy and tactics, it just gets more perks. I'm sure the following metaphor falls down in practical terms, but I'd want AI that thinks four or five moves ahead (or however you'd put it for games that aren't turn-based) and when you pick a higher level it thinks six or seven moves ahead. Instead we get AI that thinks two or three moves ahead but they get 150% hitpoints and a bonus to accuracy.