Gamasutra article about Deus Ex:IW

Pyrian on 23/8/2009 at 21:56

Quote Posted by Papy

It seems to me that you and Chade view the character you are playing as more or less disconnected from you.

Absolutely. I take enormous risks in computer games that I would never even consider taking in real life because I know I'm not going to actually die.

Quote Posted by Papy

For example, you stole from the widow in Thief 3 because you felt that's what "Garrett" would do. I understand what you are doing, but that's really not how I think when I play a video game. On my part, I was Garrett.

I couldn't even really play a Thief game with that mindset as I have moral issues with stealing under all but the most extreme circumstances.

Quote Posted by Papy

If someone else reenact my actions or my personality, then that would be a narrative. But my original actions are not a narrative. So for me, the narrative of the game doesn't include what I choose to do.

Right; one's own actions are not narrative until described. But what you choose to do in gameplay terms in Deus Ex can affect other portions of the Deus Ex narrative (but not plot structure).

Quote Posted by Papy

Most of the time, your actions were only reactions to what happened to you.

Exactly the sort of thing that is typical of playing a linear computer game and atypical of major real-life decision making.

Quote Posted by Papy

Sending the signal was probably one of the most controversial and, let's be honest, there are very few people who would naturally stay that faithful to an organization that decided to kill their brother and most probably done things a lot worse than that. So when you say "by accident", I tend to think that you are forgetting what was the story of Deus Ex and are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Absolutely not. You see, you chose to break with the organization at the exact moment the game asked you to. Not before, despite virtually every reason you've cited to do so already being in place, most of them long-since (remember, you're the one who brought all those reasons up, not me). Nor afterwards, despite how little actually changed in that particular moment. I find it difficult to believe that you made that decision entirely without a personal bias to go along with the narrative. Or, perhaps you have a bias towards obedience, and so couldn't even consider turning on your employers until someone else actually told you to.

Quote Posted by Papy

...I won't give credit for being "experimental"...

I will. Experiments always have issues that mere polished experiences do not.

Quote Posted by Papy

You are assuming a lot of things here. But before, I'd like to remind you that the "turned the place into a graveyard" was a lot sooner than the part where I had to send the signal. There was still a lot of things unknown.

I'm not assuming anything but the things you keep on telling me, because I came at the whole situation from the opposite perspective in the first place. You cited the graveyard comment as your turning point. You yourself are saying that's long before you actually turned on them, even though you cite it as the point where you knew to do so.

Quote Posted by Papy

Ok... (etc)

See, just one or two minor changes in any part of that lengthy justification in any direction and you'd want to go off the rails of the linear plot structure. To manage to stay on such a narrow path strikes me as either a lucky accident or bias. To manage it by accident for an entire game as long and complex as Deus Ex strikes me as unbelievable.

Quote Posted by Papy

Yes, but the question is why did IW writes choose to keep those lines? To me, that was a voluntary choice to make sure the player can do whatever he wants without being trapped into consequences imposed by the game. To me, this experimental idea is just a bad idea.

I think "trapped into consequences" is an overstatement. They wanted to give the player more opportunity to play the factions off against each other, betray them, and generally act as an independent agent rather than a mere gopher. I don't think that's an inherently bad idea, I think that IW didn't apply sufficient resources to carry it off. I think it could have worked if it had been fleshed out more, while you seem to be arguing that it effectively needed to be stripped down (i.e. simply removing options).

Chade on 23/8/2009 at 22:56

Quote Posted by Ostriig

if, for instance, out of the first three missions you chose to complete two with the Order while screwing everyone else, then later in the game only the Order would contact you for a mission. Whether it's 2 outta 3 or highest out of 5, or whatever ... With IW, however, I basically chose to bumfuck one potential employer in favour of their bitter enemy in one mission, and then guess who's still coming back 24 hours later, holding a big tub of margarine, and asking for my seemingly messianic help yet again. The absurdity of the situation is a serious hindrance to immersion.

I see what you are saying. From my point of view, the changes you and others are arguing really aren't that big a deal. It don't really sound like they would involve a big change in the plot, just massaging the dialogue a bit. Maybe because I was so involved in trying to make the right choices, I was digging for as much information as possible, and I just saw the lines of dialogue as a window to the plot? I don't know, but for some reason they didn't bother me.

Anyway, none of this is important. The important thing is that now I want to go out and buy Sacrifice ... who says internet debates are good for nothing? :D

Quote Posted by Papy

I don't view a gameplay decision I make as a narrative. I don't participate in a game in order to create a story, I just play a game. So for me the narrative is limited to what the game is telling me, not what I'm doing. I make a lot of strategic decisions, I can make moral decisions, but never a narrative decision. I'm never view myself as an actor when I play a game, I am always myself. I guess I'm just not an artist.

With your T3 example, I'd like to know... Did you go to the murderous bastard mode because you were disgust with Pagans or because you thought it could be a good opportunity to act like someone who was disgust with Pagans.

Well, the simple answer is: it all depends on my goals when I start playing the game. The longer answer is that on my first play-through I will just do whatever feels most natural within that game world, but then on later play-throughs I will typically try to see a different side of the game by making decisions I would not normally make.

With those Pagans, for instance, that was on my first play through and was 100% natural reaction. I naturally tend to ghost missions (well, 95% ghosting anyway). And my natural reaction after reading that book was to abandon that and murder them all. (Please never take that sentence out of context ... :p)

But just because you aren't consciously choosing to further a certain narrative doesn't mean your decisions don't create a narrative. Indeed, you are creating probably the most personally meaningfull narrative of all! That example I bring up all the time: when in DX2 I was controlling a turrett and shooting guards, I thought one of the guards looked a little odd but was too cowardly to go over and check it out, and ended up murdering klara sparks ... that was 100% natural reaction, and also formed a very powerfull narrative, because it wasn't some other person in some other author's story who had fucked up with disasterous consequences: it was my natural reactions that led me to murder one of my friends.

And in Deus Ex, you can't really avoid making narrative decisions. You might choose to go with the option that feels most natural to you, but that is still a decision.

Quote Posted by Papy

So what you are saying is that on your first playthrough, sending that signal was for you exactly like the widow mission was for me? You thought that sending that signal was immoral and you wanted to avoid it at all cost?

No no, but previously there was always some way of expressing your preference for this side or that. So for the first time that wasn't available, which confused me, and I did quite a lot of exploring to see if I had missed anything.

Quote Posted by Papy

Really? There are very few deep moral choices impacting the story in Deus Ex. Most of the time, your actions were only reactions to what happened to you. Sending the signal was probably one of the most controversial and, let's be honest, there are very few people who would naturally stay that faithful to an organization that decided to kill their brother and most probably done things a lot worse than that.

Yeah, but this was always a bit awkward. Or at least, it felt a bit awkward to me. Here we have a game which is trying to be morally ambiguous, but sometimes it can be ambiguous because it just so happens that you can offer the player a choice in that part of the story and get away with it, and sometimes you can't be ambiguous because you need to funnel the player down down a particular path and you want him to buy into that ...

Personally I feel that the ambiguous meanings attached to your in-game actions is the cornerstone of whatever it is that makes DX special. DX didn't always offer that, and personally I thought it suffered when it didn't.

Ostriig on 24/8/2009 at 02:09

Quote Posted by Chade

Well, sure, your mileage may vary, no argument there. For me, and apparently some others, those little changes implied would've had a significant impact on our final experience, but, as you said, we're probably approaching the situation differently. On the other hand, while not trying to argue against that, I think that if you want to consider the issue from a more general-purpose "good design" perspective, you should ask yourself whether the implementation of these changes that would've added to "our" experience would've, at the same time, detracted from yours in any way. Just my take on it.

Quote:

Anyway, none of this is important. The important thing is that now I want to go out and buy Sacrifice ... who says internet debates are good for nothing? :D

In my opinion, totally worth it. I've gotta admit, I never got past what I'm pretty sure was the very last mission in the game, because, frankly, I kinda suck, but that title remains one of my fondest memories in gaming.

Papy on 24/8/2009 at 04:51

Quote Posted by Pyrian

I take enormous risks in computer games that I would never even consider taking in real life because I know I'm not going to actually die. I couldn't even really play a Thief game with that mindset as I have moral issues with stealing under all but the most extreme circumstances.

You would be surprised at what people can do given the right circumstances. Not everybody is a potential hero, but a lot of people are. During my military service, I'd say half of all conscripts wanted to go to Bosnia during the war, despite the fact they all knew they could have been killed by a sniper. If I was still in the military, I would sign to go to Iraq or Afghanistan without any hesitation.

As for stealing, if I buy something and realize the cashier gives more change than I should have, I will say so and give it back. And if I realize the error only after I left the store, I will return to the story to give it back (unless it's only a few cents of course). But the question is not if I would steal in real life, the question is : if I lived in the universe and under the circumstances depicted by the story, could I steal? In my case the answer is : absolutely.

Anyway Deus Ex and, up to a point, Thief are about what we call role playing. The idea is : what would you do under those circumstances. In my case, this is what immersion is about.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

Exactly the sort of thing that is typical of playing a linear computer game and atypical of major real-life decision making.

Atypical? When nothing happens to me, I generally just go on with my boring routine. If I ever do something out of the ordinary, it is because of something external. So that sort of thing is pretty much typical of what happen in real life.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

You see, you chose to break with the organization at the exact moment the game asked you to.

Again, I didn't choose to "break" with the organization (as in "leave it"), I only chose to send a signal to help some people. It was just a moral decision, nothing more. It's the organization that chose to "fire" me.

Did I had a bias to go along the narrative? Let me see... Ludicrous story, absurd level design, characters that are laughable, oh and me talking means either looking at a cut scene or choosing one sentence among two or three. I must admit I'm kind of tempted to say : Duh! Having said that, and to respond to your point, all moral choices in Deus Ex were either insignificant to the plot (for example killing Sandra's pimp) or more or less unequivocal considering the situation. Let's be honest, there was no real choices with Deus Ex. So a particular bias to go along the story was not needed.

Oh and I don't have have a bias toward obedience. I am not an anarchist and I can follow orders if I choose to do so, but I'm very individualistic.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

Experiments always have issues that mere polished experiences do not.

You realize that's a bias, right?

Quote Posted by Pyrian

Oh yes, you assume a lot. You assume that I think things are either black or white. That's not the case. Again, the graveyard comment made me understand that Paul or the Commander on the top of the statue were most probably the good guys (that is the ones telling the truth). I was on their side. Did it mean I wanted to join their organization, ready for a pledge of allegiance? Sorry, but no. Ok, suppose you're a military and realize the officer commanding your unit, as well as probably a few others are corrupt. What do you do? Do you take the maquis right away, do you continue to blindly obey orders or do you do something in between? I'm pretty sure most people would do something in between (like trying to discreetly send a message to innocent people so they have a chance to escape).

When I look at your arguments, it seems to me you have in mind the simplistic "player belong to that faction" model of a lot of video games. With Deus Ex, I never felt I belonged to any faction. I was an individual and just adapted to the situation. Pretty much like real life. To me, this "choose your faction" that a lot of games adopt is plain bad writing.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

Why is it unbelievable? Deus Ex was a roller coaster ride, it was not a sandbox. Again, there was no real choices, so saying it was by accident is rather strange.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

IW didn't apply sufficient resources to carry it off. I think it could have worked if it had been fleshed out more, while you seem to be arguing that it effectively needed to be stripped down (i.e. simply removing options).

Yes, that's what I'm arguing, although probably not the way you understand it. It's impossible for a writer to know what the player will think and how he will react if he gives him a choice. So as long as dialogs will have to be recorded before the game is played (among other things), the only way to make a world believable, is to make sure the player has very little choices. Given the current technical limitations, there is no other solutions.

Quote Posted by Chade

I see what you are saying. From my point of view, the changes you and others are arguing really aren't that big a deal.

I'm replaying IW right now to refresh my memory and to try see how the story could be fixed. I'm still in Seattle and there is simply no way a few changes in dialog could fix that level. Lack of consequences were one problem, but that's far from being the only one.

Quote Posted by Chade

Could it be that you were overthinking the game instead of just sinking into it?

Quote Posted by Chade

Here we have a game which is trying to be morally ambiguous

Are you saying using a virus to kill most of earth population without distinction in order to gain political power is "morally ambiguous"? Serioulsy! Even Hitler was not that evil!

Deus Ex was ambiguous because you didn't have all information right from the start, but it was not morally ambiguous at all.

Thirith on 24/8/2009 at 09:52

Quote Posted by Papy

Deus Ex was ambiguous because you didn't have all information right from the start, but it was not morally ambiguous at all.

I think you're overstating here. I'd say that Deus Ex was morally ambiguous in that all of your potential partners were compromised - some perhaps more so than others, but at least at the very end every option is problematic in one way or another. There's no clearly right choice.

Ostriig on 24/8/2009 at 12:42

Quote Posted by Papy

You would be surprised at what people can do given the right circumstances. [...]

But the question is not if I would steal in real life, the question is : if I lived in the universe and under the circumstances depicted by the story, could I steal? In my case the answer is : absolutely.

Anyway Deus Ex and, up to a point, Thief are about what we call role playing. The idea is : what would you do under those circumstances. In my case, this is what immersion is about.

Not getting into the rest of your post, but this stood out when skimming - I think you've got a skewed perspective in regard to what "role paying" is. Sure, putting "yourself" in the role, and acting as you would if you lived in that universe and under the story's circumstances, as you detailed, is one form of role playing, but it's not limited to that. You can also construct and play a character that is unlike yourself, both in real life, as well as in the context of the game setting. "Role playing" is a bit like writing, in that you build a character and act them out in such a way that you envision their choices, but whether that character is a variant of yourself, or some distinct other hero, villain, or something else as you would perceive these characters, that's up to you. Some of the stuff I've done in games, whether for "good" or "evil", I wouldn't do myself even if I were indeed in the game's context. Hell, just yesterday I got a very strong dose of that in Fallout 3, somewhat surprisingly.

ZylonBane on 24/8/2009 at 13:59

I replayed some of IW this weekend (because apparently I hate myself). I'd forgotten how annoying it is that everybody pronounces ApostleCorp as "ApostleCore" through the entire game. I'm guessing the nimrod in charge of voice actors at ISA got "Corp" and "Corps" confused.

Chade on 25/8/2009 at 21:43

Quote Posted by Ostriig

On the other hand, while not trying to argue against that, I think that if you want to consider the issue from a more general-purpose "good design" perspective, you should ask yourself whether the implementation of these changes that would've added to "our" experience would've, at the same time, detracted from yours in any way. Just my take on it.

You are absolutely right. I tend to be unnecesarily militant when it comes to DX2 ...

Quote Posted by Papy

Could it be that you were overthinking the game instead of just sinking into it?

I don't think so. I think that moment was unusual, and it's not just me who thinks so. Despite everything they did to encourage the player to betray unatco, it still seems like a lot of people have complained about that moment. Once the player gets used to having even just a small amount of power, it's difficult to take that away.

Quote Posted by Papy

Are you saying using a virus to kill most of earth population without distinction in order to gain political power is "morally ambiguous"? Serioulsy! Even Hitler was not that evil!

Yes, DX had the big bad guy driving the plot forward. But apart from that, there was a lot of moral ambiguity along the way. None of your allies are perfect, and you get into lots of smaller situations where there is no "right" response. IMO, this is where DX shined, and I'm glad that DX2 took that even further.

Papy on 26/8/2009 at 07:02

Quote Posted by Thirith

I'd say that Deus Ex was morally ambiguous in that all of your potential partners were compromised - some perhaps more so than others, but at least at the very end every option is problematic in one way or another. There's no clearly right choice.

My interpretation of what constitute "moral ambiguity" is probably different than yours. I'd say that all major characters in Deus Ex were more or less well defined when it comes to their moral behavior. They certainly all had their own moral system, but that is not ambiguity. The only time I really had a feeling of ambiguity was with the NSF in the beginning.

As for the ending, the choice was a personal moral dilemma. I didn't view the game as asking me what was "the right choice" (I think the concept of "right choice" is absurd in this context), but rather what was my preferred solution among the ones presented.

Quote Posted by Ostriig

I think you've got a skewed perspective in regard to what "role paying" is. Sure, putting "yourself" in the role, and acting as you would if you lived in that universe and under the story's circumstances, as you detailed, is one form of role playing, but it's not limited to that.

I agree, the way I explained myself was not correct. So let me rephrase : "Anyway Deus Ex and, up to a point, Thief are about what we call role playing. ~~The idea~~ One form of role playing is : what would you do under those circumstances. In my case, this is what immersion is about."

But now it's my turn... When you say : "Role playing" is a bit like writing, in that you build a character", I disagree. When I role play, I do not "build a character", I am the character. Are you saying that what I do is not role playing?

Quote Posted by Chade

What power? Can you give me some examples? I don't remember having much choice about my objectives before (or after) that mission.

As to what people say, I believe a lot of them were surprise by the fact that their action was followed by a consequence. I'm pretty sure most sent the signal without thinking and then, after seeing the consequence, wanted to get out of the roller coaster ride. People don't like punishment. Personally, I had absolutely no difficulties accepting my punishment.

Quote Posted by Chade

But apart from that, there was a lot of moral ambiguity along the way. None of your allies are perfect, and you get into lots of smaller situations where there is no "right" response. IMO, this is where DX shined, and I'm glad that DX2 took that even further.

As I said to Thirith, this is not moral ambiguity. I would not qualify anyone I know or knew as perfect and yet there are very few people I ever viewed as generally "morally ambiguous". As for having no "right" response, again, this is about dilemmas, not about ambiguity.

As for IW, it tries to offer the same kind of dilemmas, but since there is very little description of characters or of the world in general, they end up being based only on your own prejudice, not on thinking. Sometimes this can work, but as the setting of the game was too distant to what people are accustomed to, they couldn't relate. So no thinking and no applicable prejudice meant no understandable dilemmas.

Ostriig on 26/8/2009 at 12:39

Quote Posted by Papy

But now it's my turn... When you say : "Role playing" is a bit like writing, in that you build a character", I disagree. When I role play, I do not "build a character", I am the character. Are you saying that what I do is not role playing?

Not at all, I'm saying that it's one form of roleplaying. It's that aforementioned particular case, where your character's psychology is already built, and you only need to consider the context. A form that I often engage in, too, usually on my first play through an RPG.

However, because I'm guessing this may be the distinction you're making, while it's understandable to think that the other forms, where you purposely build a character unlike yourself, might be less immersive, they're not really. I can't make a blanket statement, but in my case and many others', replacing the natural, reflex mechanism of "what would I do in this case?" with the slightly more distant and voluntary "what would my character, given their dispositions and background, do in this case?" comes pretty easily. For me, it's become almost second nature, to the point I can roleplay a character unlike myself without loss of immersion after just a short period of growing into their skin. After I've "built" the character, and summarily explored what makes them tick, I can effortlessly make their choices even though they may not be "my" choices.